+- SWTOR Mechanics Forums (http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums)
+-- Forum: Class Discussion (/forum-7.html)
+--- Forum: Sith Inquisitor and Jedi Consular (/forum-9.html)
+--- Thread: [ARCHIVE] 1.1.5 Madness/Balance Sorcerer DPS Compendium (/thread-573.html)
RE: Madness/Balance Sorcerer DPS Compendium - Fade - 01-06-2012 05:36 AM
(01-06-2012 05:29 AM)CloudedInSanity Wrote: Completely unrelated, but is Madness > Lightning for PvE DPS?
I can find theory crafting and everything, but I have yet to see someone state which is straight up better.
I don't think anyone can definitively (mathematically) show it yet...if they do state it, it's anecdotal. Too many unknowns from what I can see.
RE: Madness/Balance Sorcerer DPS Compendium - Asmiroth - 01-06-2012 05:46 AM
(01-06-2012 05:36 AM)Fade Wrote:(01-06-2012 05:29 AM)CloudedInSanity Wrote: Completely unrelated, but is Madness > Lightning for PvE DPS?
I can find theory crafting and everything, but I have yet to see someone state which is straight up better.
I don't think anyone can definitively (mathematically) show it yet...if they do state it, it's anecdotal. Too many unknowns from what I can see.
There are multiple variables for this making a definite answer difficult. At ops gears, on 50% armor bosses, 31 Madness is above Hybrid by about 10%. Madness is 20% above Lightning. I have a draft tool that shows this.
RE: Madness/Balance Sorcerer DPS Compendium - Kaedis - 01-06-2012 05:51 AM
Quote:Chain Lightning with Wrath has a DPCT of 1253.53. Wrath makes it instant, so the cast time is 1.5 seconds resulting in a total damage of 1.5*1253.53 = 1880.30. Without a Wrath proc that cast loses a 20% damage buff ( 1880.30 / 120% = 1566.92 ) and takes 3 / (1 + 9.43%) = 2.74 seconds to cast, resulting in a hard-cast DPCT of 1566.92 / 2.74 = 571.87 per target. Hard-cast CL has about 53% of the DPCT of Death Field with 5 targets.
I believe I had that calculated before the most recent wave of theory updates regarding damage and armor mitigation. I think. That or I was still calculating Wrath without realizing it. In any case, you're right, CL only outstrips DF against 5 targets with a Wrath proc.
Quote:If casting an inefficient ability forces you to drop a more efficient ability due to resource limitations, then it's clearly a detriment to sustained DPS. It's optimal to keep DF in the priority all the time, and cast exactly enough CL to run you out of force at the end of the fight. In real boss fights, however, maximizing sustained DPS over the entire fight is rarely an ideal goal *cough* Patchwerk *cough*. Real boss fights generally have phases that require higher DPS and or AoE to quickly eliminate some extreme danger.
Qualitative "clearly's" without math don't hold weight here. Incidentally, DF is actually a really inefficient ability, it just is very powerful as well, so it's still used. Without math to back claims like this, however, there's not much here. Just because it makes sense to use a rotation with DF in it, with just enough CL to go OOM as the boss dies, does not mean that is actually the best DPS system. Sims will tell us (which btw, I'm nearly done with mine...finally).
Quote:Didn't the devs explicitly state that we wouldn't be able to farm mods from ops gear for that purpose? I wonder how that works.
They stated you wouldn't be able to farm the first boss for gear, strip the mods out of it, and gear oranges. You can't, armorings/hilts/barrels are locked into purple items. Doesn't mean you can't strip the mods out of other gear drops and use it in your Rakata gear.
Quote:That is accounted for in DPCT. Does Convection only affect the front end then?
Don't have the cash to respec and test this. I doubt it, though.
Quote:Affliction has 8 ticks, at a coeff of .31, giving it a LARGE boost from force power. Only Force Lightning comes close in coeff but it's affected by armor. At 745FP, I get Affliction to hit for 2568 damage (non-crit). Crits for 873 (31.56%). The only talents are Force Horrors and Creeping Death (only on crits).
Affliction only has 7 ticks talented (duration 21 seconds).
Quote:We don't have the same base stats is what I'm guessing. At least they are close. Once you are ready to share your math tool, we can compare the numbers more easily.
I used the ones you quoted. Maybe we're modeling crit or certain multipliers slightly differently.
Quote:Completely unrelated, but is Madness > Lightning for PvE DPS?
Don't know for sure yet, we've not done any head-to-head comparisons because our modeling tools are still not complete. My sim has the capability to test any Sorc dps spec, however, so we'll be able to tell once I finish it (hopefully by the end of this weekend!). That said, my gut said Madness, mostly due to the difference between FL and LS's coefficients.
RE: Madness/Balance Sorcerer DPS Compendium - CloudedInSanity - 01-06-2012 05:53 AM
So then once you start getting into ops, spec for full Madness?[/align]
RE: Madness/Balance Sorcerer DPS Compendium - CaseyTheRetard - 01-06-2012 06:03 AM
(01-06-2012 05:51 AM)Kor Wrote: Qualitative "clearly's" without math don't hold weight here. Incidentally, DF is actually a really inefficient ability, it just is very powerful as well, so it's still used. Without math to back claims like this, however, there's not much here. Just because it makes sense to use a rotation with DF in it, with just enough CL to go OOM as the boss dies, does not mean that is actually the best DPS system. Sims will tell us (which btw, I'm nearly done with mine...finally).
I omitted proof since I thought it was well a known theorem. Given a set of abilities of varying efficiency, expressed in damage/resource, and a finite amount of resource to expend, damage is maximized by a greedy strategy: Use the most efficient ability as often as possible. If more resource is available, use the next most efficient ability as much as possible. etc. Would you like a formal proof?
RE: Madness/Balance Sorcerer DPS Compendium - Kaedis - 01-06-2012 06:42 AM
Quote:I omitted proof since I thought it was well a known theorem. Given a set of abilities of varying efficiency, expressed in damage/resource, and a finite amount of resource to expend, damage is maximized by a greedy strategy: Use the most efficient ability as often as possible. If more resource is available, use the next most efficient ability as much as possible. etc. Would you like a formal proof?
Hmmm...you may be right, I seem to remember a similar theorem. The sims will tell for sure.
On a side note, I admit that I will be extremely sad if CL doesn't end up being worthwhile. That'll give us literally nothing to expend our Wrath procs on except Crushing Darkness every 15 seconds, and CL in AoE if we still choose to spec for it (instead of the 1% crit from Corruption).
RE: Madness/Balance Sorcerer DPS Compendium - CaseyTheRetard - 01-06-2012 06:56 AM
Proof outline:
Given any execution X of a fight that includes a usage of inefficient ability I that could be replaced by a use of a more efficient ability E, there exists another execution X' of that fight with that usage of I in fact replaced by E. Since E is more efficient than I, X' must do more total damage than X. By extension, an optimal execution will use the most efficient abilities as much as possible.
If the limiting resource is time, most people grasp the solution intuitively: Use the highest DPS abilities as much as possible in the time available. Change that resource to Force or Mana or Energy, and it's less obvious that the same rule applies.
And yes, I agree it would suck - if I may use a qualitative argument - if we don't get to use Wrath for something. But like I said in my first post on the issue, real fights are more about managing when and what to burst than trying to maximize sustained DPS.
RE: Madness/Balance Sorcerer DPS Compendium - Kaedis - 01-06-2012 07:13 AM
Quote:Proof outline:
Given any execution X of a fight that includes a usage of inefficient ability I that could be replaced by a use of a more efficient ability E, there exists another execution X' of that fight with that usage of I in fact replaced by E. Since E is more efficient than I, X' must do more total damage than X. By extension, an optimal execution will use the most efficient abilities as much as possible.
If the limiting resource is time, most people grasp the solution intuitively: Use the highest DPS abilities as much as possible in the time available. Change that resource to Force or Mana or Energy, and it's less obvious that the same rule applies.
And yes, I agree it would suck - if I may use a qualitative argument - if we don't get to use Wrath for something. But like I said in my first post on the issue, real fights are more about managing when and what to burst than trying to maximize sustained DPS.
I stand corrected. That theorem is valid, and I see no possible exceptions. CL is still probably worth talenting if for no other reason than trash dps.
RE: Madness/Balance Sorcerer DPS Compendium - Assless1 - 01-06-2012 07:35 AM
I just wanted to say thanks for all the work you guys have put into this. I'm eagerly awaiting the results of your further testing.
Also, have the numbers on the OP been updated with the most recent data?
RE: Madness/Balance Sorcerer DPS Compendium - Deamill - 01-06-2012 08:06 AM
-sidenote- Is the current way Deathmarks work (other sorcs/assassin DoTs using up your charges) a bug or working as intended?