(12-28-2011 11:42 PM)Nishoba Wrote:  

(12-28-2011 08:01 AM)Elobi Wrote:  Could you specify what talents you take instead of Courage | Revenge ?

In terms of math, give me some time so I can make a sheet.

Thrown gauntlet looks to be the best quality of life choice I can see. Though depending on what content is like Unleashed or Intimidation may be superior.

Threatening scream can be used as a single target taunt when necessary as well.

In an ideal world we would never need to taunt but from what I've have seen so far the game loves to throw adds in throughout several encounters.

If it worked like shield slam in wow where it reset the cooldown it would be a no brainer. However I am never finding myself rage starved in addition our rage dump (Vicious Slash) is so incredibly lackluster, I try to avoid pressing it.

(12-29-2011 05:17 AM)Elobi Wrote:  

(12-28-2011 11:42 PM)Nishoba Wrote:  

(12-28-2011 08:01 AM)Elobi Wrote:  Could you specify what talents you take instead of Courage | Revenge ?

In terms of math, give me some time so I can make a sheet.

Thrown gauntlet looks to be the best quality of life choice I can see. Though depending on what content is like Unleashed or Intimidation may be superior.

Threatening scream can be used as a single target taunt when necessary as well.

In an ideal world we would never need to taunt but from what I've have seen so far the game loves to throw adds in throughout several encounters.

If it worked like shield slam in wow where it reset the cooldown it would be a no brainer. However I am never finding myself rage starved in addition our rage dump (Vicious Slash) is so incredibly lackluster, I try to avoid pressing it.

Unleashed is a situational talent, and would only provide threat in case that you were cc'd more than every two minute, which with a proper healer, we are not - it provides no obvious survivability and threat, unless you specced into payback, which is a total different discussion.

What PvE scenarios made you feel the need for a 30 second reduction on a PvP trinket?

Intimidation: Say we actually do use Chilling scream one or two times pr minute, since that skill is so situational, that it is almost pointless taking it into account(I only use it in my opener, when playing with friends that have trigger happy fingers; i.e. pulling while Im still looting something else/flying in the air/not there.)
So that is a total of 4-6 rage saved compared to a constant flow of rage reduced cost on your too main abiltities, because lets face it Smash nad Force scream is what our life is all about.

I can't be arsed making a full scale roll sheet/rng table to prove my point right now, It will come though, but we don't need math to understand that the better gear you get, the better that talent gets; There is no cooldown on the proc, except the rng.

F.ex I always have 3 stacks when my Force scream and smash are ready to use again, meaning that I get a total of 15 rage every minute, and this can vary, but mostly to the plus side in my case.

I find it contradictive that you say you aren't Rage starved, but yet find it nessecary to spec into a reduced cooldown on your AE taunt. Howver I do support your point with the many ads being in the game.

If you must have the AE taunt, which really can come in handy, or force push for troll in colicoid wargames, I suggest speccing like this, you loose 5% damage on Sweeping slash and smash and the force stasis talent, but keep all your important talents.

Thoughts ?

(12-29-2011 05:16 AM)erra Wrote:  Is the 9 second force scream build unworkable? I'd post my actual build but I'm at work; the basic idea is to go high enough immortal tree to get all defensive talents outside of endure pain; specifically 2/2 sonic barrier, and then a choice between backhand or dot force choke. You go into vengeance up to 3 second reduced CD on force scream; this also gets you unstoppable and likely some improved damage when snared.

Isn't the increased rate of absorb shields worth more than an inconsequential amount of internal/elemental resistance and a rage efficiency talent? Is our ST threat actually so bad that we need crushing blow? I'm only 31 but in pure ST situations I can maintain aggro properly, it's only the more hectic multitarget groups where things get pulled around a lot.

(12-29-2011 05:27 AM)Elobi Wrote:  

(12-29-2011 05:16 AM)erra Wrote:  Is the 9 second force scream build unworkable? I'd post my actual build but I'm at work; the basic idea is to go high enough immortal tree to get all defensive talents outside of endure pain; specifically 2/2 sonic barrier, and then a choice between backhand or dot force choke. You go into vengeance up to 3 second reduced CD on force scream; this also gets you unstoppable and likely some improved damage when snared.

Isn't the increased rate of absorb shields worth more than an inconsequential amount of internal/elemental resistance and a rage efficiency talent? Is our ST threat actually so bad that we need crushing blow? I'm only 31 but in pure ST situations I can maintain aggro properly, it's only the more hectic multitarget groups where things get pulled around a lot.

Backhand >> Force Grib

Did you read the discussion on page 4 ?

The problem is that Smash still doesn't do more threat than Crushing Blow, and you will feel the difference once you get it, and start using that instead of Vicious Slash.

And you end up in the dilemma choosing between a free Smash every 9 sec and the T5 talents.

(12-29-2011 05:26 AM)Towelliee Wrote:  I noticed the BiS list changed a bit. Is this the ideal set of gear to have before HM Flashpoints and starter Normal EV?

(12-29-2011 05:25 AM)erra Wrote:  Personally I find revenge to be the talent that fixed all of my rage issues. I feel like given proper ability rotations I am always finding myself able to dump rage on vicious slash between sundering assaults; this is without having Saber throw yet as well. Particularly with Force Scream being so important but so expensive it's really important as you'll often run into situations where FS and Retaliation come off CD simultaneously; if you can't afford them both you're running into defensive downtime which is a bad idea.

EDIT: Vicious Slash isn't a bad button even if it's boring. The button you want to minimize pressing is basic assault.


I do love Force Push for some positioning things and as a rage free damage ability but would never choose that talent for an endgame build; I'm using it now while leveling for the lolz though.

(12-29-2011 05:29 AM)erra Wrote:  

(12-29-2011 05:27 AM)Elobi Wrote:  

(12-29-2011 05:16 AM)erra Wrote:  Is the 9 second force scream build unworkable? I'd post my actual build but I'm at work; the basic idea is to go high enough immortal tree to get all defensive talents outside of endure pain; specifically 2/2 sonic barrier, and then a choice between backhand or dot force choke. You go into vengeance up to 3 second reduced CD on force scream; this also gets you unstoppable and likely some improved damage when snared.

Isn't the increased rate of absorb shields worth more than an inconsequential amount of internal/elemental resistance and a rage efficiency talent? Is our ST threat actually so bad that we need crushing blow? I'm only 31 but in pure ST situations I can maintain aggro properly, it's only the more hectic multitarget groups where things get pulled around a lot.

Backhand >> Force Grib

Did you read the discussion on page 4 ?

The problem is that Smash still doesn't do more threat than Crushing Blow, and you will feel the difference once you get it, and start using that instead of Vicious Slash.

And you end up in the dilemma choosing between a free Smash every 9 sec and the T5 talents.

I did miss the Force grab/backhand discussion, sorry.

I'm not sure I understand the rest of your points. I wish I could link a calculator build as the point of the build isn't about the free smash (With revenge why would I really need that talent?) it's about the reduced cooldown on Force Scream to increase the uptime on Sonic Barrier.

That's really what the question boils down to: Is the improved survivability from more frequent force screams worth the loss of threat from less crushing blows. Keep in mind you'll also be using Force Scream more (With the bleed on it) which is a high damage ability to begin with.

(12-29-2011 05:29 AM)Elobi Wrote:  It is a really interesting discussion, and I've been trying to work around a way to mathemitacally opossing these options, without having to make a fake encounter myself.

I suppose your build would look something like this ?

I really hate that Bio haven't tooltipped threat into Crushing Blow, Because it really does do alot more threat than Vicious Slash, whihc would become your main dump in this build.

But I will try and make a sheet and put them up against eachother.

(12-29-2011 05:49 AM)erra Wrote:  I'll post my intended build as soon as I get home (I'm sure yours is fairly close).

Just thinking of all the factors involved is mind boggling. You have improved overall damage from more points in vengeance, Unstoppable is almost impossible to accurately model (Intercede + Force Charge every 20 seconds for the rage/buff??), that force scream dot adds some additional threat/damage as well.

Really appreciate all the work. I can do basic calculations but I'm not really equipped to handle these more complex comparisons.

EDIT: Just checked your build and that's exactly what I was going for. Thanks again and anticipating the results!

(12-29-2011 05:26 AM)Towelliee Wrote:  I noticed the BiS list changed a bit. Is this the ideal set of gear to have before HM Flashpoints and starter Normal EV?