Immortal | Defense Compendium | A Tank's Guide To The Galaxy - Printable Version
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RE: Immortal | Defense Compendium | A Tank's Guide To The Galaxy - Mairu - 12-27-2011 08:35 PM
Can anyone give me some input on threat in terms of A Sith Juggernaut & SWTOR? I've been level 50 for a few days now and I've done a few flash points and hard mode flash points and I'm having difficulties coming up with the correct way to approach encounters and groups due to threat difficulties. It seems fairly easy to pull threat. I've noticed many mobs that do any sort of stun/incapacitate I'm going to lose threat on the mob when I get out, often even if I use Unleash.
I'm also having trouble trying to figure out what the best way to approach a group of ranged mobs is considering how spread out everything is in SWTOR and how small the AOE abilities Juggernauts have.
I'm not sure if I should continue putting Guard on the Healer in the party considering DPS seems to rip pretty often, and the two taunts I have I'm finding aren't always enough.
Is just the case for tanking in SWTOR, where I should expect some of the DPS to be offtanking a large portion of trash while we go through the flashpoint?
I'm coming from being a pretty experienced tank in World of Warcraft, tanking in raids & dungeons as both a druid, death knight, warrior, and paladin. This definitely seems pretty similar to warrior tanking in WoW but more similar to TBC where aoe tanking involved a great deal of switching targets.
Sorry for the long post, but I'd appreciate any sort of input.
RE: Immortal | Defense Compendium | A Tank's Guide To The Galaxy - Elobi - 12-27-2011 10:26 PM
(12-26-2011 07:28 PM)Ezharon Wrote: I'd like to know what do you think of the guardian hybrid build (http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=1780)?
The 20% damage reduction have been discussed alot - and I agree, it is an amazing talent, and it should be in the defense tree!
The build is pretty much an off-tank/wannabe AE tank build.
So yeah it is viable for FP's.. But when we are talking Ops, where you would primarily be tanking single target, the uptime of your 20% dmg reduction would be too low, and the base dmg on overhead slash lower than Guardian slash | Crushing blow..
Furthermore, the 20% damage reduction requires you to move, which in a raid situation, isnt always possible and you loose an absorp every 12 sec, that requires no action from you besides button bashing..
And with the amount of Force power you have at lvl 50, Blade Barrier | Sonic Barrier will easily absorb 10-15 % of your maximun health.
You will also generate 50% less focus than a "regular" defense specced Guardian, and even though you get a 100% free Force Sweep, With the talent Courage, it is almost free everytime anyways - and that talent helps on Blade storm aswell.
Look at it this way, with your build you will gain situational survivability at best in Ops, and even with a more damage focused build, you still wont beat troopper/BH at damage and Consulars/inquisitors at burst damage - so what can we do that they can't: play our defensive cards.
We have the best defensive cooldowns in swtor atm, and are only just behind trooper / bh in DR% and armor gained.
People frown upon the 4 % elemental damage reduction gained from Inner Peace[T6 talent], but remember that all non physical dot damage, burns etc will go straight through your armor and fry you; on top of that you get 5 seconds longer on your Enure/Endure pain, which can be lifesaving cooldown during hard phases.
So for operations I wouldn't recommend this, but the build linked in the Compendium.
You can still tank FP's with the Compendium build, since you can use your Combat Focus | Enrage almost as much as your AE taunt, so you will be able to handle the add heavy fights that bio are so fond of.
For flashpoint based on your links suggested build, I took the liberty of changing it abit; to gain more overall damage on Force Sweep/smash and extra shield chance.
I moved 2 point from Burning blade to Gather strenght, since your movement gets imparied like a bitch when fighting ads, and that talent will make your cyclone slash hit like a truck.
I also moved points from Protector, since that talent is mostly e-peen: the self applying GL buff is nice, but since you will have to jump back with force leap anyways, it is worthless, and if you choose to walk back you will only gain the damage reduction from a few blaster hits; those two point was moved to Pacification.
Moved one final point from Momentum to Shield Specialization, since you can't get it too 100% anyways, and with force sweep being free , you only have to spend focus on Cyclone slash/overhead slash/blade storm.
Link to build here
I kinda like this build, but if I were to go total AE smackface on it I would go for this
Only moved 1 point from overhead slash to Pacification, and if the dual spec option was there, I would have this is as my secondary spec.
TL;DR unless its a FP or Ad fight I don't recommend going for the Hybrid Build with Overhead Slash, or the AE Hybrid Build.
However if you absolutely HATE the last tiers of defense, and feel like the 20% damage reduction is a MUST, then go for Something like this
The last two talent points can be located at your own disposal, but I suggest Cyclonic Sweeps; Burning Blade is also a good option if you like that talent, however - Focus = Survivability and threat - and the extra free generated focus is really helpful.
(12-27-2011 08:35 PM)Mairu Wrote: Can anyone give me some input on threat in terms of A Sith Juggernaut & SWTOR? I've been level 50 for a few days now and I've done a few flash points and hard mode flash points and I'm having difficulties coming up with the correct way to approach encounters and groups due to threat difficulties. It seems fairly easy to pull threat. I've noticed many mobs that do any sort of stun/incapacitate I'm going to lose threat on the mob when I get out, often even if I use Unleash.
It is alot like Warrior tanking pre lol...
and with game mechanics not alowing us to "silence" ranged mobs, since they dont cast spells :>, we have to prepare for each bigger fight.
When beginning a FP, make sure to tell your dps that you will mark and that they should follow kill order strictly, without them following killorder down to a tee, you will have to spam taunt and whatnot to try and sort out the mess.
Then explain to them what markers means what or simply do a "/p Killorder: Flame > Aim > Lightning etc." - personally, Imacroed this particualr kill order into my mouse to speed up things.
Make sure to tell them what markers are CC markers etc.
First off, to speed smaller packs up, make sure your dps automatically follows this kill order: Weak/normal > Strong > Elite > Champion
Since the sheer damage from those weak bastards sums up pretty fast.
If you got two f, ex two strongs , I suggest you mark the strong you want to kill first and then the ladder.
Regarding the dps off tanking; in larger packs you will often have weak/normal mobs which dies soo fast its not even funny, so to get a clean table as fast as possible before going down the kill order of the elites/champions have your dps use their heavy AE cd's and follow up with a AE taunt and a Sweeping Slash
just before it ends - Then you will have time to get back to your actuall targets of interest.
Range: Melee (4m)
Activation time: Instant
Damage Type: Weapon
Mirror: Cyclone Slash
Slashes up to 5 enemies in front of you for <>> weapon damage each. Attacks with both lightsabers if dual wielding.
But if hell is loose - you should prioritize taunts/offensive cd's like this Champions > Elites > Strongs > Weak/normal..
Since most dps can handle the weak and normal mobs way better than the harder hitting mobs -> However, this doesn't mean that you should let them tank them, but if you are in a dire situation, you will have to choose, so choose wisely before taunting (unless you AE taunt is ready.)
Regarding the CC after pull! that is anooying as hell! I am sometimes able to force them to use their knockback or close range stun with my Saber Throw before charging.
However, if you do get CC'd and you are behind on aggro when your out again, make sure your Dps knows the mechanics of threat, and that they need to let you pick them up again before going full throttle. Prioritize mob aggro like listed above.
Tl;DR Manage your group like you manage packs: Strict and well planned; and things will be alot easier.
You really need to be bossy as a Juggernaut | Guardian to get things to run smoothly. I suggest you find someone you know from your guild or w/e and mainly run flashpoints with them until you got the hang of the packs and how to avoid mess; then you can start pugging, but try to always bring a friend with you to back you up when you boss them around - A backup can do wonders.
RE: Immortal | Defense Compendium | A Tank's Guide To The Galaxy - Belaganor - 12-28-2011 01:25 AM
I had the same issues until I picked up crushing blow. That ability generates a TON of threat. I think the real key is your opener, and as Elobi put it, making sure your dps know what to do.
The opening I use now is:
Enrage, Saber Throw, Force charge, (shout, smash for single / smash, shout for multiple mobs), Force choke, crushing blow. At that point me primary target is pretty much all mine. This sets up nicely to get in 2 sundering assaults before your next crushing blow as well, which is pretty key for the extra aggro from the high dmg.
This order really helps with threat and mitigation.
For aoe situations, I always ask a specific dps to lead on the weak/normal mobs 1st. It's ok to let them take a hit or two before I taunt or take the aggo.
A few tricks:
1) You can use force push to either help group up spread out range mobs before your smash or to throw one of the melee mobs out to lessen the initial dmg on you.
- If you do this to a range mob instead, you can use this mob as your target the next time force charge comes off cooldown. It's good for rage and take some dmg off you for a few seconds as the melee mobs have to run over to you.
2) For multiple mobs use saber throw on one mob, but charge another
3) You can put guard on the highest threat dps, and even switch it to a healer later on if needed.
4) For non-elites you can use force choke on them as well, while the dps kills them. Threat doesn't even matter while they are 3 feet in the air.
RE: Immortal | Defense Compendium | A Tank's Guide To The Galaxy - Panemtorvra - 12-28-2011 01:29 AM
On the subject of holding aggro, I've not found it to be problematic, but I'm following a philosophy akin to what Elobi posted. This is from FP experience; I haven't done operations yet. But, that's the subject, so that's the subject. In Mairu's wording, I don't expect DPS to offtank a "large portion" of the trash, but I usually expect 1 mob to be CC'd and the primary kill target to be off my plate. Further, as you say, I do switch targets, and frequently.
First, we follow a strict kill order (I'm what you'd call assertive), and we do prioritize the killing of normal/strong enemies. I rarely concern myself with the primary target's aggro because they'll die rather quickly. In my experience, if a DPS member actually is dying in the time it takes to burn 1 strong mob, they're not interrupting something. Most of them do have something -- I don't know all of the other classes' abilities yet -- and most can successfully interrupt an ability if you tell them what to focus on (at this point, everyone who's level 50 is pretty competent; this may change). If it's an elite, it'll still die rather quickly, and perhaps I'll taunt once and hold aggro for some of the time, but my DPS don't come anywhere near death.
Second, most of the damage is single-target. If I'm tanking two things, I might Saber Throw/Force Charge the thing last in the kill order, Backhand it, then swap to the primary target and use Sundering Assault, Force Scream, and away we go. I haven't noticed issues with initial aggro on the primary target in such a situation, and I'll hardly have to worry about the secondary target. I occasionally switch to build threat, but not on any planned interval, more on feel. Perhaps some might disagree here. My experience is, if you have several elites active after 1 is CC'd, the best thing to do is burn one down and get its damage out of the picture. I haven't found a group that wanted to AE the 3-4 of them. People use AE abilities, but this isn't the undisciplined AE madhouse of WoW.
As an aside, I do Guard the healer, but only because I've never tried anything else. If you find one DPS that's really a problem, Guard him and tell us how it goes, please.
I don't notice that mobs that stun/incapacitate pull threat unless I'm in the first few seconds of a fight. If you have an issue with single target threat, I'd wonder about your rage management. I'd like to see more discussion here; I think it's been discussed only superficially so far and I expect to hear varied opinions. Sorry to derail the threat talk and head there, but rage management and threat go hand in hand. You should basically never use Assault. If you're using Assault, you're doing something wrong. On rage management:
1) I see our "rotation" as Sundering Assault --> 2 GCDs worth of something --> Sundering Assault for consistent rage generation. If I use 3 rage-consuming abilities between Sundering Assaults, I'll frequently not have enough rage in the next round to use anything, and I'll have to use Assault.
2) I use Enrage often, but not the moment it comes off CD, and not frequently to start a fight. It's off GCD and can be used in the middle of anything when you need it. I think there are a thousand justifiable ways to begin a fight, and I often use Enrage in my first or second cycle, but if I build 10 rage initially with Enrage, Force Charge, and getting hit, I'll want to use too many abilities before I use Sundering Assault, and I'll get behind. Plus, you can Saber Throw before Force Charge, thus beginning with 7, and keep Enrage for 6-10 seconds later when Saber Throw is off the table.
3) I try to separate your Force Screams from Smashes temporally to maximize the benefit from Revenge.
4) Force Choke ought to be used as freuqently as Enrage, and use Ravage as well. If you have 7-10 rage, heavy rage-consuming abilities are the way to go, but with less than that, use 1 consuming ability then Force Choke, and after another Sundering Assault you'll have quite a bit of rage. Ravage gets hated on on forums because you'd need to interrupt it for Retaliation or Disruption. You ought to have a good idea of when those are coming. Use Ravage when they're not coming.
5) Your first Sundering Assault ought to come rather early in the fight. This is what I worry about with using Enrage to begin. If you have 10 rage initially, you may be tempted to use it all, then use Sundering Assault. Don't. Use 1 rage-consuming ability, then SA. This is the difference between getting behind and staying ahead.
6) Force Push, followed by Force Charge, can be a good filler if applicable. If the mob can't be Pushed, I don't know that the damage is worth still using it. I've been meaning to make a spreadsheet of all the level 50 damage ranges, but I forgot about it until now.
7) If your first reaction to Vicious Slash being referred to as a "rage dump" was that it's not that great, look again. It does solid DPS, and spending 3 rage on VS is a great way to go if you've no strong reason to use a more situational ability (e.g. Backhand for +threat, or whatever).
It's hard to put it all to paper, but at the end of the day, I can fight a FP boss for 1.5-2 minutes and use Assault maybe once per minute. I counted around 30 hotkeys when I redid them all at 50, I think, and I use every one of them. If anyone has a single target threat problem, I'd start here.
RE: Immortal | Defense Compendium | A Tank's Guide To The Galaxy - Magnificrab - 12-28-2011 05:34 AM
Unnatural Might / Force Might are stated to increase damage and healing by 5%
They only increase bonus damage by 5%, which is a good deal less than an overall 5%
Didn't read all the pages to see if this was already stated
RE: Immortal | Defense Compendium | A Tank's Guide To The Galaxy - Nishoba - 12-28-2011 06:47 AM
I have been reading up on different talent discussions and wanted to bring up Revenge here. I for one am not feeling the need for it at all. I never find myself continually "force starved", I guess its possible at high gear/avoidance levels you will need it to smooth out power generation. I'm having great success using Ravage and other free abilities when between 1-4 rage, and then sundering is off CD and I'm back into rotation.
Has everyone just blindly taken this talent without looking at the math behind it?
Freeing up those 2 points allows 31/10 to be a better raid tank then 33/8
RE: Immortal | Defense Compendium | A Tank's Guide To The Galaxy - Elobi - 12-28-2011 07:18 AM
(12-28-2011 05:34 AM)Magnificrab Wrote: Unnatural Might / Force Might are stated to increase damage and healing by 5%
That is a false statement, I'm sorry.
Activation time: Instant
Cooldown: 6 secs
Mirror: Force Might
Increases the target's melee, ranged, Force and tech bonus damage and healing by 5% for 60 minutes. If the target is a party member, all other party members are also affected.
Furthermore, if you want to make statements like that, please post it with relevant SS's or Data.
Though this might have been a case of bad wording from your part, did you mean that it only increases your bonus modifiers in terms of dmg and healing, if so then yes you are right.
[Edit: Fixed, I corrected the missing part about the Bonus, thank you for notifying]
RE: Immortal | Defense Compendium | A Tank's Guide To The Galaxy - Elobi - 12-28-2011 08:01 AM
(12-28-2011 06:47 AM)Nishoba Wrote: I have been reading up on different talent discussions and wanted to bring up Revenge here. I for one am not feeling the need for it at all. I never find myself continually "force starved", I guess its possible at high gear/avoidance levels you will need it to smooth out power generation. I'm having great success using Ravage and other free abilities when between 1-4 rage, and then sundering is off CD and I'm back into rotation.
Could you specify what talents you take instead of Courage | Revenge ?
In terms of math, give me some time so I can make a sheet.
RE: Immortal | Defense Compendium | A Tank's Guide To The Galaxy - Mairu - 12-28-2011 08:03 AM
Thanks for the replies! It's unfortunate that there's no combat log because it'd be nice to know the actual numbers on threat modifiers and such to see exactly where each skill lands in terms of threat generation.
I haven't done any flash points since posting so I haven't had a chance to try guarding the DPS that seems to rip often.
I don't use Ravage much at all. I'll give that a try next time though I don't really like that it locks up time if Retaliation or Force Scream comes back up (though I can always just cancel in the middle)
RE: Immortal | Defense Compendium | A Tank's Guide To The Galaxy - Nishoba - 12-28-2011 11:42 PM
(12-28-2011 08:01 AM)Elobi Wrote: Could you specify what talents you take instead of Courage | Revenge ?
Thrown gauntlet looks to be the best quality of life choice I can see. Though depending on what content is like Unleashed or Intimidation may be superior.
Threatening scream can be used as a single target taunt when necessary as well.
In an ideal world we would never need to taunt but from what I've have seen so far the game loves to throw adds in throughout several encounters.
If it worked like shield slam in wow where it reset the cooldown it would be a no brainer. However I am never finding myself rage starved in addition our rage dump (Vicious Slash) is so incredibly lackluster, I try to avoid pressing it.