Immortal | Defense Compendium | A Tank's Guide To The Galaxy - Printable Version +- SWTOR Mechanics Forums (http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums) +-- Forum: Class Discussion (/forum-7.html) +--- Forum: Sith Warrior and Jedi Knight (/forum-8.html) +--- Thread: Immortal | Defense Compendium | A Tank's Guide To The Galaxy (/thread-550.html) RE: Immortal | Defense Compendium | A Tank's Guide To The Galaxy - cerberias - 01-16-2012 02:52 AM Quote:I'm not sure I understand? - Since I just choose not to open the fight with GS, but use Backand and sundering instead. Ah, my fault. I was pretty much finding that if I didn't open with some major threat gen I was losing threat almost instantanously at the start of the fight. Like a back to back hilt strike/guardian slash/blade storm/force sweep or similar. [/quote]The reason I use Guardian Leap on cooldown, was to see the maximum potential of the builds in discussion. So I decided to use it before the knockback, since I designed it so you have the unstoppable buff whenever the boss would do either Energy Beam or Killing Blow. And it showed us exactly what you said, that nobody in their right mind would do it, because as I stated you loose flexibility. But I stand by my statement, that in the Hybrid, you have to choose between output vs survivability. [/quote] If you took the 15 GCD's of Guardian Leap out of the mix according to your stats you would still come out ahead on damage reduction, but would probably also come out ahead on damage dealt also, yes? Quote:Force Scream does more damage in the hybrid(especially after we added the "extra free GCD's"), but since this a non RNG fight there is no crit etc and that is also why the boss'es abilities are timed to fit charge and intercede, and why we always have 3 stacks of Courage whenever we use Force Sweep. It is not perfect, but I am willing to accept a margin of error, to ease the proces of comparisment. I simply took the avg amount of damage from the tooltips, since factoring crit, shields etc would be a vast amount of math for no obvious reason. I'd definately prefer a spec that is less reliant on RNG to build threat. Also, with the added crit you could just add 30% extra damage to the damage of Blade Storm - 60% of 50% extra crit damage (to average it out). This of course assumes no surge, since I have none myself. [/quote]You call me an idiot, yet build your argument on a belief? I'm hesitant to feel offended. since, yes there are factors like that, but bare in mind that if I know that there will be coming a huge burst of damage, I wont just mindlessly use my Blade Storm. Since if we are talking a base attack from the boss - that hits for, lets say, 5000 before %DR kicks in - that means you will take 2500 damage in the hybrid, and the traditional spec would take 2700, of course will the amount negated by the extra 4% get better the more damage the boss inflicts, but then we start looking at burst phases where you would have to use another cooldown anyways, which is a total different discussion.[/quote] I never meant to insinuate calling you an idiot - the comment of idiocy was only directed at that example, your post as a whole was very well made and gave me some good ideas to increase my own threat generation some. As for the shield part - if you use it perfectly it may come out ahead on reducing burst damage but to time it that right so that you're never losing damage from holding off on blade storm but also only using the shield for burst damage purposes would be nigh impossible and therefore you're either going to suffer in threat generation or burst mitigation - unless you can find a fight where the burst damage happens every twelve seconds . Quote:So if, according to you i'm not allowed to use a fight like Soa, how do you maximize your survivability with charge and intercede during the p3 ? Becasue no matter how many times I turn that table, I always end upnot having optimal uptime. Well, I havent seen p3 Soa on hard mode but on normal mode its pretty much just a dps race - theres not really a whole bunch of damage flying at the tank, but you could get a pretty decent uptime and usage of unstoppable by using it whenever hes casting at you, since he'll stop to cast you can quite easily get in a charge while hes standing still without messing up his positioning. I don't see there being enough of a difference between the specs on p3 as resources arent a problem and all that matters is that you can get him into position and do a decent amount of burst damage during the 10 seconds hes on the ground. RE: Immortal | Defense Compendium | A Tank's Guide To The Galaxy - Elobi - 01-16-2012 04:54 AM (01-16-2012 02:52 AM)cerberias Wrote:  If you took the 15 GCD's of Guardian Leap out of the mix according to your stats you would still come out ahead on damage reduction, but would probably also come out ahead on damage dealt also, yes? In this particualr fight it would acummulate to another 15 k damage from Vicious Slash, and still let you have 3 Rage left- but you would only loose a total of 4k negated damage; I.e. yes that would make the hybrid win the damage table, but only in this fight, any other fight where you would have to use Intercede, you would have to miss out on damage. Which brings me back to the previous statement : That in the hybrid, you must always choose between output or survivability. (01-16-2012 02:52 AM)cerberias Wrote:  I'd definately prefer a spec that is less reliant on RNG to build threat. Also, with the added crit you could just add 30% extra damage to the damage of Blade Storm - 60% of 50% extra crit damage (to average it out). This of course assumes no surge, since I have none myself. That could have been the smoothets way yes, but im not sure on top of my head wether that would come out even compared to the Burning purpose build. On a side note, take a look at the rakata gear, got tons of Surge, and that kinda pisses me off, since I loose so many defensive stats from the Rakata Tier. It's kinda weird. (01-16-2012 02:52 AM)cerberias Wrote:  I never meant to insinuate calling you an idiot - the comment of idiocy was only directed at that example, your post as a whole was very well made and gave me some good ideas to increase my own threat generation some. I still think that such examples are important, because there are some fights that are better for each Build, so my I guess the real idocy was me being biased, tired and thereby not using another example favoring the Hybrid build aswell. (01-16-2012 02:52 AM)cerberias Wrote:  As for the shield part - if you use it perfectly it may come out ahead on reducing burst damage but to time it that right so that you're never losing damage from holding off on blade storm but also only using the shield for burst damage purposes would be nigh impossible and therefore you're either going to suffer in threat generation or burst mitigation - unless you can find a fight where the burst damage happens every twelve seconds . This is the very core of the problem, and the whole discussion. Since some fights will suit the 15 second cd on Unremmetting better, where some fights would fit the Blade Barrier better. So it really comes down to playstyle and preferences. And then we have a whole other discussion, AE tanking where the traditional spec has a higher focus gain, and higher damage on both Force Sweep and Cyclone Slash. All in all they are as close to 1:1 as they can get right about now. Was thinking something along this? 31/10/0 [Immortal | Defense T7 Build] A Defensive spec with alot of utility, such as on the go CC, Stun with increased threat, increased Rage | focus gain, increased Shield Chance, a High-damage ability /w 15 second cd and a force shield that absorbs roughly +10 % of your total hp. Be adviced that certain boss mechanics might leave you with a smaller Resource income. A highly flexible spec that provides us with the best AoE threat available and a solid toolbox of utility, threat and survivability. Alternative Builds: 31/10/0 (link would be here) 14/27/0 [+4% DR/DoT Hybrid Build] A Hybrid Defensive spec, going deep into the Vengeance | Vigilance tree to gain a higher healthpool, increased damage reduction to all sources, immunity to CC after charge, improved Intercede | Guardian Leap, that will also provide you with the 20% damage reduction, and a resource free Smash | Force Sweep every 12 seconds. Be adviced that resource management is harder, and mobility is a must to maintain buffs from Charge. A Dot focused build, that can, if played correctly save yourself from tons of damage; furthermore providing you with a high damage ability every 9 seconds for optimal threat and damage. Alternative Builds: 14/27/0 (your build f. ex) 15/36/0 etc. Thoughts ? I am really trying not be biased when writing this. And the ratings would of course seem less smack face etc. (01-16-2012 02:52 AM)cerberias Wrote:  Well, I havent seen p3 Soa on hard mode but on normal mode its pretty much just a dps race - theres not really a whole bunch of damage flying at the tank, but you could get a pretty decent uptime and usage of unstoppable by using it whenever hes casting at you, since he'll stop to cast you can quite easily get in a charge while hes standing still without messing up his positioning. I don't see there being enough of a difference between the specs on p3 as resources arent a problem and all that matters is that you can get him into position and do a decent amount of burst damage during the 10 seconds hes on the ground. True about the casting, I did that aswell when tanking him in the hybrid -however I like that I can pop my BB shield just as the spinner fall, because I must admit, they didnt exactly make it easy to spot where it's exact landing spot will be RE: Immortal | Defense Compendium | A Tank's Guide To The Galaxy - cerberias - 01-16-2012 12:24 PM Quote:In this particualr fight it would acummulate to another 15 k damage from Vicious Slash, and still let you have 3 Rage left- but you would only loose a total of 4k negated damage; I.e. yes that would make the hybrid win the damage table, but only in this fight, any other fight where you would have to use Intercede, you would have to miss out on damage. You could just not use intercede unless you or someone else really needs the damage mitigation, I would think of it not as part of the base rotation for any fight but another oh shit move for when you or someone else needs that extra burst of survivability. Quote:That could have been the smoothets way yes, but im not sure on top of my head wether that would come out even compared to the Burning purpose build. On a side note, take a look at the rakata gear, got tons of Surge, and that kinda pisses me off, since I loose so many defensive stats from the Rakata Tier. It's kinda weird. I think it will come out ahead at a certain gear level, and scale better - I don't think the talent dots really scale well if at all. Whereas the crit chance scales with surge and any extra damage you can muster up also. As for the rataka gear - surge is probably the worst of our threat generation stats and to me it makes no sense why it would be on our tanking gear. I can understand that bioware might have though 'they have enough health at this level of gear they need more threat generation' but I just cant understand Surge. Accuracy, power, crit or just plain strength would do just fine at increasing threat but in a much more optimal way. Rating - If you were to rate them I would suggest less flexibility, resource management and AoE threat for the hybrid, but higher damage and survivability. As your stats pointed out if you take out intercede it wins on both damage mitigated and damage done, even if only slightly. I would also add in a category of difficulty and make the hybrid spec shown to be harder, due to the difficulty of timing charges with burst and harder resource management. You could also make the hybrid better on RNG as it is as reliant on defence to increase threat generation. [/quote]True about the casting, I did that aswell when tanking him in the hybrid -however I like that I can pop my BB shield just as the spinner fall, because I must admit, they didnt exactly make it easy to spot where it's exact landing spot will be[/quote] Yeah, that'd be a good spot to use it, it is fairly hard to see and I usually just end up soaking it to be honest.. We have one of the sages pop a shield on me before they drop if possible, and if not I tend to just pop a pot or a cooldown to make the damage negligible. RE: Immortal | Defense Compendium | A Tank's Guide To The Galaxy - Panemtorvra - 01-17-2012 12:58 AM I see only two Rakata pieces with surge: BP and boots. Every modifiable item has either surge or accuracy, though. I'm in the habit with my Columi gear of removing item mods and switching them around to get the stat distribution I want, and while I won't be swimming in extra Rakata the way I am with Columi, it seems that wouldn't help anyway. Exactly one piece has shield rating on it. About 300 accuracy, which puts us well over 100% hit. Very odd itemization indeed. Using Columi mods will sacrifice only 4 endurance per piece for a fair bit of a stat you might actually like, so consider that. RE: Immortal | Defense Compendium | A Tank's Guide To The Galaxy - Celoth - 01-18-2012 07:03 AM I tried searching the thread, but couldn't find a definitive answer... Your guide, as I understand it, implies that threat numbers are assigned to each ability, with modifiers added, rather than being based on the specific amount of damage after threat mods (example - sweeping slash, modified with Soresu form, hits everything for 2 threat no matter if I'm a Juggernaut in full greens, or one in Rakata Purples) Is this an accurate understanding? Or am I mis-reading that part? RE: Immortal | Defense Compendium | A Tank's Guide To The Galaxy - Elobi - 01-18-2012 07:36 AM (01-18-2012 07:03 AM)Celoth Wrote:  I tried searching the thread, but couldn't find a definitive answer... Your guide, as I understand it, implies that threat numbers are assigned to each ability, with modifiers added, rather than being based on the specific amount of damage after threat mods (example - sweeping slash, modified with Soresu form, hits everything for 2 threat no matter if I'm a Juggernaut in full greens, or one in Rakata Purples) Is this an accurate understanding? Or am I mis-reading that part? We are still working out the exact mechanics of threat - Since damage seems to have a say in the matter, but I cannot give you anything definitive without leaving room for error, so until then all we know is that 1 dmg ability is 1 hate and 1 healing is 0.5 hate. and that modifiers adds a +0.5 hate. But I'm still looking through the .TOR files in nodeviewer to try and find some more on this matter. We also know that you create the same threat no matter if you are ranged or in melee range. RE: Immortal | Defense Compendium | A Tank's Guide To The Galaxy - Cassius81 - 01-18-2012 08:10 PM A quick note on gear. For me, at the moment, I am favoring strength vs defense upgrades. I'm finding that tanking normal Eternity Vault and heroic Flashpoints my defense is adequate but threat can sometimes be an issue. With only a 50% threat bonus, threat is a very big deal and you have to work for it. RE: Immortal | Defense Compendium | A Tank's Guide To The Galaxy - Fraser - 01-20-2012 04:41 AM Regarding the Blade/Sonic Barrier calc in the OP, where did those numbers come from? Admittedly Torhead isn't really the best source, but the effect details you listed match those for static barrier/force armor (sorc/seer spell) rather than the listed values for Blade/Sonic Barrier. Blade/Sonic Barrier shows: AbsorbDamage: SpellType=>Force, StandardHealthPercentMin=>0.1, StandardHealthPercentMax=>0.1, DamageType=>None, AmountPercent=>1 Which is weird because I'm almost certain that it absorbs more than 708.5 damage (.1 * standard health for lvl 50). I have no actual proof, haven't tested, but anecdotally it feels like it absorbs more than that, and no scaling on a talent like that would be silly, which would indicate that it scaled off of something, but there is no scale factor listed there. Now I haven't actually taken the time to use node viewer to look for it because I've been too busy having fun playing, but for those of you who have, could we take another look at this, it seems like it's kind of important when it comes to evaluating our ability to mitigate damage. RE: Immortal | Defense Compendium | A Tank's Guide To The Galaxy - Elobi - 01-20-2012 04:47 AM (01-20-2012 04:41 AM)Fraser Wrote:  Regarding the Blade/Sonic Barrier calc in the OP, where did those numbers come from? Admittedly Torhead isn't really the best source, but the effect details you listed match those for static barrier/force armor (sorc/seer spell) rather than the listed values for Blade/Sonic Barrier. Blade/Sonic Barrier shows: AbsorbDamage: SpellType=>Force, StandardHealthPercentMin=>0.1, StandardHealthPercentMax=>0.1, DamageType=>None, AmountPercent=>1 Which is weird because I'm almost certain that it absorbs more than 708.5 damage (.1 * standard health for lvl 50). I have no actual proof, haven't tested, but anecdotally it feels like it absorbs more than that, and no scaling on a talent like that would be silly, which would indicate that it scaled off of something, but there is no scale factor listed there. Now I haven't actually taken the time to use node viewer to look for it because I've been too busy having fun playing, but for those of you who have, could we take another look at this, it seems like it's kind of important when it comes to evaluating our ability to mitigate damage. I never said that it absorbs 708,5 damage, where did you get those numbers from ? The numbers are datamined from the .TOR files. StandardHealthPercentMin and StandardHealthPercentMax are referring to the values in another table called cbtStandardHealingInfo. (If this was a damage ability, they would be referring to values in cbtStandardDamageInfo). In that table, you will find a several sub-tables of numbers, for various "toughnesses" (weak, normal, strong, etc). If you scroll down about halfway through that table, you'll find a sub-table with the heading "cbtToughness_player". Then there is a list of numbers from 1-50, which is the level at which you last trained a rank of the ability (for trained abilities) or the rank at which the ability becomes available (for skill tree abilities). Since Blade Barrier is the latter, and becomes available at Level 30, the corresponding number is 3670. So the ability absorbs 367 damage. Like a few abilities, Static Barrier is listed under a different (earlier?) name in the data files, and is called "Backlash". For Backlash, you will see StandardHealthPercentMin and StandardHealthPercentMax are 0.164, and the HealingPowerCoefficient is 3.27. Since the last rank of Static Barrier is trainable at Level 50, the corresponding number from the cbtStandardHealing table is 7085. That means StaticBarrier absorbs 0.164*7085 = 1161.94 + 3.27*ForceHealingBonus (at Level 50). $\begin{eqnarray} {1161,94 +3,27*ForceHealingBonus} &=& Value Absorbed\end{eqnarray}$¨ This formula is true for all absorb mechanics RE: Immortal | Defense Compendium | A Tank's Guide To The Galaxy - Fraser - 01-20-2012 05:31 AM (01-20-2012 04:47 AM)Elobi Wrote:  I never said that it absorbs 708,5 damage, where did you get those numbers from ? The numbers are datamined from the .TOR files. StandardHealthPercentMin and StandardHealthPercentMax are referring to the values in another table called cbtStandardHealingInfo. (If this was a damage ability, they would be referring to values in cbtStandardDamageInfo). In that table, you will find a several sub-tables of numbers, for various "toughnesses" (weak, normal, strong, etc). If you scroll down about halfway through that table, you'll find a sub-table with the heading "cbtToughness_player". If you take a closer look at that number you will note that I got it from the mentioned table, using the standardHealthPercent value of .1 that was quoted in my post and the level 50 value from the table. (01-20-2012 04:47 AM)Elobi Wrote:  Then there is a list of numbers from 1-50, which is the level at which you last trained a rank of the ability (for trained abilities) or the rank at which the ability becomes available (for skill tree abilities). Since Blade Barrier is the latter, and becomes available at Level 30, the corresponding number is 3670. So the ability absorbs 367 damage. The guys over in the formulas thread on the mechanics section of the boards have actually determined that the overall character level is used for the scaling of talented abilities, in this case level 50, where the corrisponding number is 7085 giving an absorb of 708.5. (The first post of the formulas thread is updated to reflect this, but the original investigation is on pages 15 and 16, in case you wanted to check this out) (01-20-2012 04:47 AM)Elobi Wrote:  Like a few abilities, Static Barrier is listed under a different (earlier?) name in the data files, and is called "Backlash". For Backlash, you will see StandardHealthPercentMin and StandardHealthPercentMax are 0.164, and the HealingPowerCoefficient is 3.27. Since the last rank of Static Barrier is trainable at Level 50, the corresponding number from the cbtStandardHealing table is 7085. That means StaticBarrier absorbs 0.164*7085 = 1161.94 + 3.27*ForceHealingBonus (at Level 50). $\begin{eqnarray} {1161,94 +3,27*ForceHealingBonus} &=& Value Absorbed\end{eqnarray}$¨ This formula is true for all absorb mechanics My question was directly related to this, where exactly was it determined that the values in the above formula (used for static barrier for sure) are used for all absorbs, or more specifically Sonic/Blade Barrier. If it is used for all absorbs (values and all), fine, I can live with that, it means that sonic/blade barrier has a pretty good power coefficient if I understand the function of the stats correctly, which would in turn mean that power and strength actually benefit our mitigation somewhat. I seem to recall reading a post or two from you in the formulas thread on the mechanics forum looking into exactly this issue (the scaling of Blade/Sonic Barrier) and taking the example given (static barrier) as wrote for all absorbs when to my eyes it looked like just that, an example which could be where some of this confusion on both our parts comes from. If, however, it is not, and the numbers I quoted from torhead are correct then what the heck is the coefficient on our talented ability because we can all say for damn near certain that it absorbs a fair bit more than the 708.5 that it logically should with no scaling coefficient. Further if it doesn't scale off power then what does it scale off of? Edited a few times for clarity.