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RE: Immortal | Defense Compendium | A Tank's Guide To The Galaxy - Coral - 01-15-2012 07:22 AM

I have read the guide and its very good btw. I see there is no Endurance priority as a stat and i just want to make sure it is so before sloting the 3-4 pieces i have gotten so far. I dont have a lot of gear and im sitting at 14,800 hp atm with 26%defense shield chance at 29% and absorption at 22%. The consensus in my guild is i needed more HP since i was low compared to a assasin that is tanking atm with 20k hp. I see the discussion going around the defense/shield/absorption stats only and wanted to make sure of what i need. Thanks a lot before hand for the help.

RE: Immortal | Defense Compendium | A Tank's Guide To The Galaxy - Elobi - 01-15-2012 07:31 AM

(01-15-2012 07:03 AM)Fenlnir Wrote:  Hit 50 on my Juggernaut and started to do the dailies and some Hardmodes with friends/guildies and the tanking system feels a little clunky. I would like to mention that I played every type of tank in WoW. Threat generation even in Soresu form feels like it's lacking and this is reasonably close to the Accuracy cap which means I don't miss very often.

After reading through this guide I noticed that the issue was with the abilities not generating threat (at least I think so). With only Backhand generating a "high amount of threat" the minute long CD makes me feel like I really have to compete with dps for threat as Guard is put on the healer for the threat reduction.

I guess that leads to my question of, does anyone else seem to have this issue with tanking so far? I'm not in BiS gear by any means but after a few years of tanking on WoW, I know my threat gen and survivability and it feels off.

It is true, it really does require alot of attention to maintain threat.

What spec are you currently using?

The problem is that, as far as I know (from datamined info), is that unlike WoW, does our defensive mehcanism not create threat, So where in wow you would get "free" threat on mobs just by blocking, you only create threat by doing actual damage in sw:tor.

On top of that, is it only a 50 % threat bonus you get by being in Soresu Form, compared to 600% (cataclysm) and 300% in WotlK.

Whihc is also why Powertechs | Vangaurds are beasts at tanking atm, because their damage is so solid.

I dont mind sacrificing some damage for the extra defensive cooldowns, but when damage equals threat, it makes it hard not to feel clunky, or lets say incompetent.

The best you can do is make sure your resource management is optimal, and that you control your group; Since it's friends and guildies they should be applicable to such Tongue

(01-15-2012 07:22 AM)Coral Wrote:  I have read the guide and its very good btw. I see there is no Endurance priority as a stat and i just want to make sure it is so before sloting the 3-4 pieces i have gotten so far. I dont have a lot of gear and im sitting at 14,800 hp atm with 26%defense shield chance at 29% and absorption at 22%. The consensus in my guild is i needed more HP since i was low compared to a assasin that is tanking atm with 20k hp. I see the discussion going around the defense/shield/absorption stats only and wanted to make sure of what i need. Thanks a lot before hand for the help.

Well, the reason there is no Endurance priority, and no BiS list, is that we really only have 1 set of gear to choose from, with maybe some rare Relics as an exception.

All tanking gear have more Endurance in generel, so the best you can do is to get better gear, your HP will automatically improve as you obtain better gear (obviously).

If they are really hyped about Hp, try out the hybrid spec to give yourself a bigger buffer - where as I, myself, cannot stand the Rage starvation nor the need to Interceed/Charge to maintain optimal survivability, it is (until proven otherwise, one way or the other) equally viable for tanking, but requires a way better resource management from your end.

RE: Immortal | Defense Compendium | A Tank's Guide To The Galaxy - Coral - 01-15-2012 09:58 AM

Thanks for the reply Elobi. With those stats i posted right now, would you go for more of the defensive stats or more hp would help?

RE: Immortal | Defense Compendium | A Tank's Guide To The Galaxy - Rocklyn - 01-15-2012 10:08 AM

Hey Folks i'm pretty confused about the Rakata Earpiece and Implants.
Stats of the Rakata War Leader's Implant/Package/Module:
77 Strength
118 Endurance
48 Accuracy Rating
37 Defense Rating

No Question, they have a high Amount of Endurance but dont they lack on Defensive Stats?

I personal got the 49er Cybertech Earpiece as Veracity version which provides me with:
45 Strength
72 Endurance
40 Shield Rating
60 Defense Rating
27 Surge
+28 Endurance via Augment

and the 49er Veracity Implant from Biochem:
45 Strength
72 Endurance
40 Shield Rating
27 Accuracy
60 Defense Rating
27 Surge
+28 Absorption via Augment

As i said before, the Rakata ones have an high amount of Endurance, but aren't crafted one anyway better?

ps: sorry for my bad spelling, i'm from germany.

RE: Immortal | Defense Compendium | A Tank's Guide To The Galaxy - Elobi - 01-15-2012 11:13 AM

(01-15-2012 10:08 AM)Rocklyn Wrote:  Hey Folks i'm pretty confused about the Rakata Earpiece and Implants.
Stats of the Rakata War Leader's Implant/Package/Module:
77 Strength
118 Endurance
48 Accuracy Rating
37 Defense Rating

No Question, they have a high Amount of Endurance but dont they lack on Defensive Stats?

I personal got the 49er Cybertech Earpiece as Veracity version which provides me with:
45 Strength
72 Endurance
40 Shield Rating
60 Defense Rating
27 Surge
+28 Endurance via Augment

and the 49er Veracity Implant from Biochem:
45 Strength
72 Endurance
40 Shield Rating
27 Accuracy
60 Defense Rating
27 Surge
+28 Absorption via Augment

As i said before, the Rakata ones have an high amount of Endurance, but aren't crafted one anyway better?

ps: sorry for my bad spelling, i'm from germany.

It really depends on your current gear - and how much you prioritize Accuracy, since our Tier gear doesn't have much it, while the ear and implants do, the Endurance is nice, but the huge amount of str, and accuracy, seems worthwhile versus the extra defensive stats, since with just full coumi gear, your defensive stats will be high enough to be affected enough by Diminishing Returns to start looking at the secondary stats and your threat. the extra survivability will come with your rakata gear.

But I will look into it, and come back with some numbers Smile


(01-15-2012 09:58 AM)Coral Wrote:  Thanks for the reply Elobi. With those stats i posted right now, would you go for more of the defensive stats or more hp would help?

Well, I was never a fan of endurance stacking, but I would get some more shield rating, but without sacrificing hp, if possible.
Get some pvp gear, it will boost your hp significantly, and you can use the mods for tionese gear when u can afford it, since it will give you a frankenstein columi piece, nom nom.

plus there is a ton of defense rating on pvp gear.

RE: Immortal | Defense Compendium | A Tank's Guide To The Galaxy - Elobi - 01-15-2012 12:33 PM

Been going through the numbers regarding our latest addition to hybrid specs.

The builds in discussion is 31/10/0 - Compendium Build [Traditional] vs 14/27/0 +4% DR build

I've added a few mechanics to the boss fight, and increased his damage, and corrected errors made in previously posted sheets.

This boss will now inflict a total of 250k damage over the course of the fight.

I have used my own stats for % DR (mine is actually 47% but rounded numbers are easier to convey)

The bossses abilties will conveintly be peformed so that we can always charge/intercede before the burst comes.

[Image: bh9v5.png]

What is most important to note here, is that if you use your Intercede
Intercede
Sith Warrior (Juggernaut)

Range: 30m
Activation time: Instant
Cooldown: 20 secs
Mirror: Guardian Leap

Leaps to a friendly target, reducing his or her damage taken by 20% for 6 seconds.
/ Force Charge
Force Charge
Sith Warrior

Rage: 3
Range: 10m - 30m
Activation time: Instant
Cooldown: 15 secs
Damage Type: Weapon
Mirror: Force Leap

Jumps to a distant target, dealing <> damage with the main hand weapon, immoblizing the target for 2 seconds and interrupting the target's current action. Builds 3 rage. Cannot be used against targets in cover.
on cooldown, which you should if the spec is to viable at all, you wont have any GCD's left. You dont even have enough GCD's to use Force Scream |Blade Storm on cooldown.

Furthermore, is the 10 Assault | Slash, that B1 performed, not even necessary, since even after the full 5 min fight, B1 still has 36 Rage left.

The hybrid does have 96 rage left, but that is because there isnt enough GCD's to spend it on.

The Hybrid came out on the plus side on survivability.

[Image: 2vkkhds.png]

As you can see, is there, only, a ~6 k difference in damage taken in between the two builds.

If you are Biochem, then it is a mecpack you need to pop to equalize the difference.

Though, the problem here is, that if the boss does an ability that hurts, while both of your 20% DR is on cd, then the whole build goes in the wash.

I tanked D7 and Soa with it, and I still end up with the feeling of being locked down.

If you are to maintain the buff at maximum uptime, it allows for 0 flexibility.

Lets look at the "free GCD's"

[Image: 2s7uade.png]

Here, by not having to spend countless globals on survivability, because we already gain survivability by doing damage with Force Scream, we had 41 extra GCD's after we had taken care of our priority system. Providing us with ~50 k damage on top of what we already are doing.

Furthermore can we freely move about, use force push or master strike without penalty.

If we take teh actual damage with our talents, it looked like this.

[Image: kbdahx.png]

Now the actual damage of the hybrid is higher, however, with the less GCD's to play around with, you loose alot of damage.

26% to be exact - that is alot of damage, and thereby threat, on top of the hybrid builds existing abscense due to the Force charge distance run.

The no available GCD's would be true for the other hybrids speccing into Huddle aswell.
The main problem with the hyrbid is that you loose your flexibility, to gain a minor defensive bonus, and as stated earlier, would the boss have to hit you for more than 10-11 k before unstoppable becomes superior to Blade Barrier.

This fight is of course very primitive, since there is no rng and the fact that we hit every cooldown on the spot. So this would be different live. But it still gives us a good picture of the two.

So what can we derive from this.

The hybrid provides us with a bigger healthpool, a minor increase in our survivability and the best of them, the immunity to CC after charge.

But the price is too high, since whenever you use Ravage, or force push or any ability that isnt Charge/Intercede/Impale/force Scream/Sundering you gimp your survival, threat and damage. Furthermore, are you locked into a "moving" rotation, which might not alwasy be possible - Think of wiping with 1% on Soa, because you interceded a raid member, for then to see soa move away from the spinner, and then he begins casting. nothing you can do.

The 2k absorb from Sonic barrier might not sound as awesome as 20% DR, but with the increased threat, mobility and flexibilitym, the slight loss of survivability is definetly worth it.

I still recommend the 31/10/0 build.

That being said, this is definetly the best hybrid build I've dealt with so far. and they both came put almost equal.

I will add it to the compendium with a few notes of interest.

RE: Immortal | Defense Compendium | A Tank's Guide To The Galaxy - cerberias - 01-15-2012 05:09 PM

Well, a few flaws that I can see quite apparently are as follows. I may be reading this wrong as I'm not exactly awake fully but I'll give it a shot.

- Guardian slash only used with five stacks - Only a small one, just means it generates less threat at the start of the fight i.e. when its most needed.
- Guardian Leap on cooldown is rediculous, nobody in their right mind would use it on cooldown, not only does it use a GCD when it doesn't need to but it also messes up positioning - this should be saved for when yourself/an ally is being burst down. I know you've used it on cooldown but i'd just take it out and count it as more of a situational ability.
- Zero rage sweeps for the traditional spec - this is assuming the boss is a generic melee attacker, and that you get RNG on your side. As I alluded this is one of the reasons I dislike the traditional spec as it is too subject to RNG. If the boss is not melee you're rage generation goes down massively and the rotation is completely changed.
- 1.5 second delay before a charge - You can quite easily time this after a force push/blade storm/dispatch as you're running out and not lose any GCD's at all. This is a huge advantage for the hybrid which you havent left in.
- Not sure how you've worked out the DR for unstoppable/huddle. Could you allude to that? Shouldnt they both be more in the middle, ones at 44k ones at 4k.
- Force Scream should be doing more damage by a lot with the hybrid spec, as its cooldown is lower, can I ask how you got that answer?

The main reason I believe this build is better is that the 4% damage reduction is flat across the board and cant be wasted on 'base damage' i.e. the damage the boss does consistently throughout the fight that is not burst damage. For example if you use your sonic barrier 2 seconds before a boss burst, it gets taken out by the bosses next attack - and attack that could have quite easily been healed up with no real effort by a healer using zero resources. This turn of events means that the barrier has absolutely zero effect on the upcoming burst damage, the 4% damage reduction however means that the healers have to heal through that small damage beforehand but have an easier time managing the burst. If you wait for the burst to come you might die (cc'd or out of range if knocked back) or you might end up doing less threat (messing up rotation, not using sonic barrier on cooldown).

In essence, you play and spec the hybrid differently to how I run it (i go for crit on blade storm after overhead slash, and get full pts into free blade storm on charge since we have a dps jugg), and you're assumptions include a mechanic that is unpredictable at best and on some fights is completely useless (soa for example). (even your example with no base melee attacks would make the talent useless)

Quote:Furthermore, are you locked into a "moving" rotation, which might not alwasy be possible - Think of wiping with 1% on Soa, because you interceded a raid member, for then to see soa move away from the spinner, and then he begins casting. nothing you can do.

This is simple idiocy, please don't try to use this as evidence. Just trying to grasp at straws with that.

I have one question though - has anyone worked out whether the shield effect causes threat, and if so, how much? Also, does a stack of 'sunder' cause threat? I'm more or less making this spec for threat generation as I believe the threat generation (as do my guildies) is higher than a standard spec especially at frontloading at the start of a fight. The - at least what I believe - added mitigation is just a plus side.

RE: Immortal | Defense Compendium | A Tank's Guide To The Galaxy - Elobi - 01-16-2012 12:26 AM

(01-15-2012 05:09 PM)cerberias Wrote:  - Guardian slash only used with five stacks - Only a small one, just means it generates less threat at the start of the fight i.e. when its most needed
I'm not sure I understand? - Since I just choose not to open the fight with GS, but use Backand and sundering instead.

But it really doesn't matter, since the sheet is wants to compare the two specs damage and survivability, not a single ability's threat.

(01-15-2012 05:09 PM)cerberias Wrote:  - Guardian Leap on cooldown is rediculous, nobody in their right mind would use it on cooldown, not only does it use a GCD when it doesn't need to but it also messes up positioning - this should be saved for when yourself/an ally is being burst down. I know you've used it on cooldown but i'd just take it out and count it as more of a situational ability.

The reason I use Guardian Leap on cooldown, was to see the maximum potential of the builds in discussion. So I decided to use it before the knockback, since I designed it so you have the unstoppable buff whenever the boss would do either Energy Beam or Killing Blow.

And it showed us exactly what you said, that nobody in their right mind would do it, because as I stated you loose flexibility.
But I stand by my statement, that in the Hybrid, you have to choose between output vs survivability.

(01-15-2012 05:09 PM)cerberias Wrote:  - 1.5 second delay before a charge - You can quite easily time this after a force push/blade storm/dispatch as you're running out and not lose any GCD's at all. This is a huge advantage for the hybrid which you havent left in.

Good point.
That would give you a total of 4 Force push's, 12 Blade storms, and the rest to use on dispatch (did not make an execute phase, so wont be dealing with dispatch)
Which gives you a total of (4*900)+(12*1300)+(31,2*(6*12))= 21445,4 damage, which now gives us a total difference of: 4022,4 Damage.
So in this fight - we either gain or loose: damage or EH between the builds.

(01-15-2012 05:09 PM)cerberias Wrote:  - Not sure how you've worked out the DR for unstoppable/huddle. Could you allude to that? Shouldnt they both be more in the middle, ones at 44k ones at 4k.
- Force Scream should be doing more damage by a lot with the hybrid spec, as its cooldown is lower, can I ask how you got that answer?

Did you read the first lines about notes and boss abilities ?

But lets go through it anyways.
Quite simple, since as mentioned before, is the huddle only active before the knockback, whilst Unstoppable is active at all other critical points, which is why it would seem as if huddle was worth less; maybe I should have noted that. I can see why you get confused.

Force Scream does more damage in the hybrid(especially after we added the "extra free GCD's"), but since this a non RNG fight there is no crit etc and that is also why the boss'es abilities are timed to fit charge and intercede, and why we always have 3 stacks of Courage whenever we use Force Sweep. It is not perfect, but I am willing to accept a margin of error, to ease the proces of comparisment.

I simply took the avg amount of damage from the tooltips, since factoring crit, shields etc would be a vast amount of math for no obvious reason.


(01-15-2012 05:09 PM)cerberias Wrote:  The main reason I believe this build is better is that the 4% damage reduction is flat across the board and cant be wasted on 'base damage' i.e. the damage the boss does consistently throughout the fight that is not burst damage. For example if you use your sonic barrier 2 seconds before a boss burst, it gets taken out by the bosses next attack - and attack that could have quite easily been healed up with no real effort by a healer using zero resources. This turn of events means that the barrier has absolutely zero effect on the upcoming burst damage, the 4% damage reduction however means that the healers have to heal through that small damage beforehand but have an easier time managing the burst. If you wait for the burst to come you might die (cc'd or out of range if knocked back) or you might end up doing less threat (messing up rotation, not using sonic barrier on cooldown).

You call me an idiot, yet build your argument on a belief?
I'm hesitant to feel offended. since, yes there are factors like that, but bare in mind that if I know that there will be coming a huge burst of damage, I wont just mindlessly use my Blade Storm. Since if we are talking a base attack from the boss - that hits for, lets say, 5000 before %DR kicks in - that means you will take 2500 damage in the hybrid, and the traditional spec would take 2700, of course will the amount negated by the extra 4% get better the more damage the boss inflicts, but then we start looking at burst phases where you would have to use another cooldown anyways, which is a total different discussion.

(01-15-2012 05:09 PM)cerberias Wrote:  In essence, you play and spec the hybrid differently to how I run it (i go for crit on blade storm after overhead slash, and get full pts into free blade storm on charge since we have a dps jugg), and you're assumptions include a mechanic that is unpredictable at best and on some fights is completely useless (soa for example). (even your example with no base melee attacks would make the talent useless)

In a non RNG fight like this, you would come out with abit more damage compared to the posted hybrid. Since you would crit 100% of the time; which essentially is a lie, The talent is only worth more than the burn talent if you crit.

So if, according to you i'm not allowed to use a fight like Soa, how do you maximize your survivability with charge and intercede during the p3 ? Becasue no matter how many times I turn that table, I always end upnot having optimal uptime.

(01-15-2012 05:09 PM)cerberias Wrote:  
Quote:Furthermore, are you locked into a "moving" rotation, which might not alwasy be possible - Think of wiping with 1% on Soa, because you interceded a raid member, for then to see soa move away from the spinner, and then he begins casting. nothing you can do.

This is simple idiocy, please don't try to use this as evidence. Just trying to grasp at straws with that.

It was merely an example of how inflexible the hybrid is, yes the traditional is more vulnerable to RNG, but even without courage, you can still perform.

Which is essentially my point. The traditional spec doesn't have any "build in" penalties.

But I've come to the point where this is definetly the best hybrid build I've dealt with so far. and they both came put almost equal.

I will add it to the compendium with a few notes of interest.

(01-15-2012 05:09 PM)cerberias Wrote:  I have one question though - has anyone worked out whether the shield effect causes threat, and if so, how much? Also, does a stack of 'sunder' cause threat? I'm more or less making this spec for threat generation as I believe the threat generation (as do my guildies) is higher than a standard spec especially at frontloading at the start of a fight. The - at least what I believe - added mitigation is just a plus side.

All datamined data shows, so far, that only damage, healing and "tooltipped threat"(Backhand, Soresu form) creates threat.

This was discussed in a previous post aswell.

RE: Immortal | Defense Compendium | A Tank's Guide To The Galaxy - Rocklyn - 01-16-2012 01:32 AM

@ Elobi, thanks for youre response my current gear gives me the following
Health: 17270
DR: 44.75%
Defense: 24.05%
Shield C: 39.51%
Shield A: 30.14%
Accuracy 96.87%

Yes i know, i need some more Accuracy but i havent even got full tionese so i there definitely will come some more, anyway, it realy hurts me to lose these avoidance stats.

RE: Immortal | Defense Compendium | A Tank's Guide To The Galaxy - Elobi - 01-16-2012 02:09 AM

(01-16-2012 01:32 AM)Rocklyn Wrote:  @ Elobi, thanks for youre response my current gear gives me the following
Health: 17270
DR: 44.75%
Defense: 24.05%
Shield C: 39.51%
Shield A: 30.14%
Accuracy 96.87%

Yes i know, i need some more Accuracy but i havent even got full tionese so i there definitely will come some more, anyway, it realy hurts me to lose these avoidance stats.

Then don't equip your ear/implants until you can afford to loose the stats.

But in the end, its up to you really.

Other than that, you have managed your stats really well!