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+--- Thread: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium (/thread-446.html)
RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium - blott - 01-10-2012 07:34 PM
@asmiroth first of THANK YOU, i r no math person and its hard for me to find time to try to get the stuff down and finished for these sorta things, but also I was wondering if you could remodel the pyrotech build based on this http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301hMZMsMZfGbbzGhMc.1 spec instead of the one posted originally in the first page. I have found this spec to be much more front loaded damage with the 6% increase to FB instead of wasting 3 points on getting TD.
Also if the armor pen thing is bugged that sucks balls :C / Forgot we use Combat Tech gear not eliminator for PT dps. but yeah. ty.
RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium - Weidekuh - 01-10-2012 11:23 PM
we can't just make a priority list with dps numbers. Damage / heat is also very important to know. so i just calculated damage/heat with asmiroths numbers.
we want to cast as few rapid shots as possible. so keeping heat low is a top priority. now we just have to model dps and heat and procs to get the best priority list for our spells... yeah, sounds easy
- Prototype numbers:
Flame Thrower (5 stacks) - 2192 87.68 damage / heat
Death From Above - 2012 80.48 d/h
Flame Thrower (no stacks) - 1523 60.92 d/h
Retractable Blade - 1520 95 d/h
Rail Shot (Crit) - 1481 92.56 d/h
Rail Shot normal - 1281 80.06 d/h
Immolate - 1272 159 d/h
Rocket Punch - 1258 78.63 d/h
Explosive Dart - 1025 65.06 d/h
Flame Burst - 899 56.18 d/h
Rapid Shots - 809
For the Pyrotech Build, assuming target is on fire, I get:
Incendiary Missile - 2065 82.6 d/h
Death From Above - 2044 81.76 d/h
Thermal Detonator - 1806 112.87 d/h
Rail Shot - 1609 100.5 d/h
Flame Thrower - 1523 60.92 d/h
Rocket Punch - 1377 86.06 d/h
Explosive Dart - 1041 65.06 d/h
Rapid Shots - 882
Flame Burst - 803 50.18 d/h
Flame Burst with proc % -> FB + 30% RS = 8 heat -> 160.71 d/h
Rocket Punch with proc % -> RP + 45% RS = 8 heat -> 190.88 d/h
this list is still just a very vague approximation, since we discounted the armor penetration, crit, crit multiplier.... of the abilities.
RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium - Asmiroth - 01-11-2012 12:36 AM
(01-10-2012 11:23 PM)Weidekuh Wrote: this list is still just a very vague approximation, since we discounted the armor penetration, crit, crit multiplier.... of the abilities.
Everything but armor penetration is in those numbers I provided. Crit, haste (only DFA and Flamethrower are affected), Surge and armor resistance. Every talent that directly affects an ability is also included.
@Blott - FB is oddly one of the worst abilities we have for a few reasons. First, the damage is always going to be low and the scaling is poor. Second, the Heat cost is too high for the low damage. This gives it the lowest Damage Per Heat score, no matter what build you take. Third, the benefits of FB (excluding Combust) are such that it takes 4-5 casts to ensure the proc, which makes it incredibly unreliable. To get that proc, you're giving up the use of more damaging abilities.
Prototype Flame Thrower
Are 5 casts of FB (and 4 casts of Rapid Shots to get rid of the Heat) worth the 5 stack for Flamethrower? That sequence takes 16.5 seconds and deals 164K damage. If I completely ignored FB and just used the priority list I would deal 185K damage over the same time.
Here's a slightly different way of looking at it.
Prototype Particle Accelerator
FB has a net gain of 8.5 Heat. That's 1.1 casts of Rapid Shots to lose the heat, so FB has a cast time of 3.15 seconds to be Heat neutral. PPA has a 30% chance to proc a free Rail Shot. It will take 3.3 casts of FB to get a proc (this is not accurate but I'm simplifying). It will take you 10.4 seconds to get a proc, using the abilities with the lowest possible damage.
The core issue with Bounty Hunters (and Troopers) is that you have an extremely limited resource pool, where you can only use 1-2 abilities in sequence before using an auto-attack (Rapid Shots) in order to be efficient. Any skill that requires an active attack to have a % chance to proc another item, is extremely unreliable and next to impossible to manage for damage purposes. In every single case that I have mathed out, it is completely inadvisable to try for or wait for a proc rather than just use the priority list provided.
Prototype has a 15 second rotation due to cooldowns. You would normally see:
- Flamethrower
- Retractable Blade
- Rapid Shots
- Rail Shot
- Immolate
- Rocket Punch
- Explosive Dart
- Flame Burst (this means that future Flamethrower attacks will have a 10% boost)
- Rapid Shots (finish at ~5 Heat)
Pyro does not have a rotation due to the mix of 15 and 18 second cooldowns. It stays a priority list.
RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium - Slashinator - 01-11-2012 08:05 AM
Going to be using mostly Trooper terminology here so apologies to any confused Bounty Hunters!
(01-11-2012 12:36 AM)Asmiroth Wrote: The core issue with Bounty Hunters (and Troopers) is that you have an extremely limited resource pool, where you can only use 1-2 abilities in sequence before using an auto-attack (Rapid Shots) in order to be efficient. Any skill that requires an active attack to have a % chance to proc another item, is extremely unreliable and next to impossible to manage for damage purposes. In every single case that I have mathed out, it is completely inadvisable to try for or wait for a proc rather than just use the priority list provided.
Does that make this part of the compendium invalid therefore?
Quote:I would never be using Rocket Punch / Stockstrike unless it was free, nor would I use Rail Shot / High Impact Bolt unless it was an auto crit. As a result of this you will have some periods of down time in your rotation and rather than spam Rectractable Blade / Gut and clip the bleed effect (reducing the effectiveness of the ability), you can use Flame Burst / Ion Pulse to build up stacks of Prototype Flame Thrower/Pulse Generator to use Flame Thrower / Pulse Cannon at 50% increased damage.
I am inclined to agree with Asmiroth on this. The problem with holding off HiB for a Combat Tactics proc is that Stock Strike has a 9 second Cooldown and only a 25% chance to generate a CT proc, Gut is only used to refresh its bleed so only once every 14-15 seconds or so. (I assume from the wording of the tooltip that it is only the initial application of Gut which has a chance to proc CT? It can't proc off the DoT ticks can it? If it can then that might make what I am about to write less of an issue.) All it takes is abit of dodgy RnG and you've wasted 1 or 2 High Impact Bolts (Rail Shot) which, even on a non crit, is still one of your highest damage / ammo abilities. It strikes me that procs like Combat tactics should really just be treated as a "nice to have" DPS increase which just raises your HiB crit rate over the course of a fight, rather than as a proc around which your priority system is based.
RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium - blott - 01-11-2012 08:48 AM
I think you are missing the point of FB, it is undeniably a filler ability, just like IM is a DoT ability so you can always Rail. Most of your damage comes from the free combos of RP/FB + Rail and using ED.
Also something is very odd imo with your numbers for FB / Rapid Shots my tooltips show rapid shots well under FB, where are the numbers coming from for your damage avgs?
Tooltips for my current gear a mix of colimini and some other peices, take it as you will.
Rapid Shots - 638-851 - 744.5
Flame Burst - 956-1029 - 992.5
RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium - Asmiroth - 01-11-2012 10:49 AM
(01-11-2012 08:48 AM)blott Wrote: I think you are missing the point of FB, it is undeniably a filler ability, just like IM is a DoT ability so you can always Rail. Most of your damage comes from the free combos of RP/FB + Rail and using ED.
Also something is very odd imo with your numbers for FB / Rapid Shots my tooltips show rapid shots well under FB, where are the numbers coming from for your damage avgs?
Tooltips for my current gear a mix of colimini and some other peices, take it as you will.
Rapid Shots - 638-851 - 744.5
Flame Burst - 956-1029 - 992.5
Rather than look at the tooltip can you get the numbers from using the skill and average it out? Tooltips are notoriously inaccurate and Rapid Shot is a bad one since it isn't one attack but multiple ones. Also to note, weapon damage has a very large impact on the damage of Rapid Shot. It's basically 5 shots from your gun (from what I've been able to gather) - with a few more variables. When you're in combat sometimes you'll see 3 numbers, sometimes more. It's odd. I used Overkill for my calcs, with 382 damage. I'll try and get the sheet up tomorrow.
With 6 abilities that provide more damage than FB, the odds of you getting a spot in your priority list to even use it are rare at best. Relying on FB/RP for free casts of Rail Shot is a DPS loss. There's no real way for you to see it in game until there's a damage meter though. Casting RP and getting a free RS is great.
RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium - Slashinator - 01-11-2012 05:42 PM
This is far beyond my maths brain but I was thinking, if we're getting to the stage where talents like Combat Tactics (the auto crit High Impact Bolt talent) are effectively just crit rate increases, is there a way of working out roughly what % crit gain on HiB the talent is over the course of, say, a five minute fight? Not that it would really matter but it might be interesting to know roughly how effective the talent is as a DPS boost if you use HiB on cooldown regardless of whether you have a proc or not.
RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium - blott - 01-11-2012 06:58 PM
@slashinator lmao after going wtf did he post in the wrong thread or something, then translating your post ha silly me, I am starting to agree with you guys that fishing for procs is probably a bad idea the thing is, it procs a lot... way more then I would expect from a 30% chance part of this I think is because of how Rocket Punch is also giving it a chance so I do not notice the long 70% of no procs from FB as much once again tricking me into thinking this is a worth while idea.
@asmiroth Having your sheet would be awesome I would really dig being able to plug my gear in and get some realistic numbers outside of the game please post it
As for some real testing here goes nothing I have Fast Credits for my MH, which has a 249-462 range so only 355.5 avg dps because it is only a normal mode 128 item. Where as Overkill is a hardmode (or is it nightmare?) item with 140 rating, but it would never be used by a PT as it is a offhand ranged wep anyways. BUT to the numbers! I had to just fraps and go from frame to frame to make sure I got the right numbers, it seems that rapid shots fires 5 bolts each have a chance to miss/dodged, so I started off trying to count the changing pop flytext numbers and then I noticed the numbers were really big like, way more hp then the mobs I killed lol. So then I noticed the hp values go down a single amount per rapid shot making it super easy to calc then. Flame burst is well flame burst so that was easy.
This was all done with the spec I posted above that I wanted you to test with, if you want me to do it with no talents I would be happy to do that.
Flame Burst - avg - 1159.21
Rapid Shots - avg - 704.84
These were the level 50 weak Graan mobs on Belsavis right outside the Imp Daily zone.
Flame Burst
Code:
01) 1728
02) 956
03) 918
04) 1736
05) 930
06) 947
07) 951
08) 941
09) 948
10) 935
11) 1650
12) 956
13) 948
14) 1685Rapid Shots
Code:
Mob HP Total - 4605
01) 4605 - 3821 = 784
02) 3821 - 3230 = 591
03) 3230 - 2600 = 630
04) 2600 - 1885 = 715
05) 1885 - 1198 = 687
06) 1198 - 0321 = 877
Mob HP Total - 5430
01) 5430 - 4810 = 620
02) 4810 - 4194 = 616
03) 4194 - 3414 = 780
04) 3414 - 2812 = 602
05) 2812 - 2122 = 690
06) 2122 - 1383 = 739
07) 1383 - 0721 = 662
Mob HP Total - 4605
01) 4605 - 3885 = 720
02) 3885 - 3270 = 615
03) 3270 - 2478 = 792
04) 2478 - 1716 = 762
05) 1716 - 1028 = 688
06) 1028 - 0206 = 822RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium - Oyxl - 01-11-2012 07:06 PM
(01-11-2012 10:49 AM)Asmiroth Wrote:(01-11-2012 08:48 AM)blott Wrote: I think you are missing the point of FB, it is undeniably a filler ability, just like IM is a DoT ability so you can always Rail. Most of your damage comes from the free combos of RP/FB + Rail and using ED.
Also something is very odd imo with your numbers for FB / Rapid Shots my tooltips show rapid shots well under FB, where are the numbers coming from for your damage avgs?
Tooltips for my current gear a mix of colimini and some other peices, take it as you will.
Rapid Shots - 638-851 - 744.5
Flame Burst - 956-1029 - 992.5
Rather than look at the tooltip can you get the numbers from using the skill and average it out? Tooltips are notoriously inaccurate and Rapid Shot is a bad one since it isn't one attack but multiple ones. Also to note, weapon damage has a very large impact on the damage of Rapid Shot. It's basically 5 shots from your gun (from what I've been able to gather) - with a few more variables. When you're in combat sometimes you'll see 3 numbers, sometimes more. It's odd. I used Overkill for my calcs, with 382 damage. I'll try and get the sheet up tomorrow.
With 6 abilities that provide more damage than FB, the odds of you getting a spot in your priority list to even use it are rare at best. Relying on FB/RP for free casts of Rail Shot is a DPS loss. There's no real way for you to see it in game until there's a damage meter though. Casting RP and getting a free RS is great.
It's not a dps loss in any way, unless the tooltip is off for about 50%. I think I did the math to prove it. The sole damage of a Rail Shot is enough to compensate most of the abilities. How did you end up with 1800 rail shot damage, I wonder, if it should do about 3200 avg damage an has 72%, or 90% armor penetration? Even assuming mobs have 25% armor and assuming the deminishing returns makes -72% equal 10%, leaving 15% on the target you'd still deal an avg of 2720 per shot. At level 50 obviously.
Thermal Detonator is reduced by armor, has no ARP and no additional damage modifiers beyond additional crit damage. Truly, I wonder how you get your numbers.
The Pyro's talent trees focus for about 70% on fire abilities. 50% of that 70% are talents that somehow support Rail Shot, reducing their heat, proccing freebees, etc. Considering the proc only as a "nice addition" would be extremely silly.
Many abilities that you listed do not gain any additional crit, damage or crit damage through your talents, while the abilities you consider trivial or filler get massive amounts of it.
As I said, unless the Rail Shot tooltip is off at least 50%, scrap that, rather 30%, which I doubt it is, there's no way your average could get near 1800.
RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium - Asmiroth - 01-12-2012 01:30 AM
I've posted the sheet up on GDOCS here It assumes you're level 50 and enemies have 35% armor. ArmPen is not in. It's in Open Office and based on the work Sujin did for Inqs.
As for the particular items.
@Blott - Thanks! A few items though. Weak enemies have no armor and the numbers I had were at 35% armor. Are you at 100% accuracy too since I see the word MISS frequently when I test it? If you can use the sheet to put in your numbers and let me know, that would be great.
@Oxyl. I don't have ArmPen in my numbers as I don't know how it works. There are conflicting numbers all over the place and I need to test more to update the data. All the data numbers I posted include the bonuses to crit, surge and nearly all talents (including the On Fire ones). They don't take into account procs as they need to be modeled.
I don't see where I put 1800 for RS damage, can you point that for me so I can correct it? For clarity's sake, Rail Shot does 2414 damage in Ops gear, or 1609 Damage per cast time (DPC). I use DPC to compare attacks since Flamethrower and Death From Above take longer than 1.5s to cast. Sorry for the confusion.
If you could try the sheet and input your gear, then you could compare the numbers there to the ones you see in game. If there's a mistake I'd be glad to fix the numbers I have.
EDIT: found a rather significant bug in the sheet for how armor was being calculated.
Prototype turns into something close to the following for DPCT
Death From Above - 1593.58
Flame Thrower - 1552.83
Rail Shot CRIT - 1528.94
Immolate - 1296.04
Retractable Blade - 1203.3
Rail Shot - 1015.66
Rocket Punch - 997.93
Flame Burst - 916.4
Explosive Dart - 811.92
Rapid Shots - 637.25
Pyro turns to
Incendiary Missile - 2121.41
Death From Above - 1627.44
Thermal Detonator - 1503.06
Flame Thrower - 1473.3
Rail Shot - 1333.69
Rocket Punch - 1096.67
Explosive Dart - 829.17
Flame Burst - 819.55
Rapid Shots - 694.6
Still trying to find data on ArmPen. Anyone want to PM me the code to insert tables? Looks ugly in this format.