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RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium v2.0 - Cosmic Osmo - 03-15-2012 03:17 AM
(03-14-2012 06:35 AM)kray Wrote:(03-14-2012 04:56 AM)Cosmic Osmo Wrote: Great work! A huge improvement over v1.0. Just a few suggestions:Simulations disagree with this. According to what I've got, what I listed is the best priority. I assume you meant to include Fire Pulse at the beginning underneath Gut there =P. The logic behind the ability order is to ensure that the highest damage ability available gets used first, followed by ensuring you don't override any procs. Truly, every logical priority list I run ends up within ~10dps of each other, so I put the one that consistently was a bit higher than the others.
- The priority for AP/Tactics should be Gut / Stockstrike / HIB / Pulse Cannon / Ion pulse, regardless of whether or not stockstrike and HIB have procs, and how many stacks of pulse generator there are. Using pulse cannon on cooldown is always best, despite stack count, in part because it's only 3 ammo for 2 GCDs worth of high damage output.
I'm open to more discussion on what the best priority for AP/Tac is... this compendium is a collaborative effort.
Actually, I read your priority list incorrectly, thinking you had prioritized ion pulse over unprocced stockstrike/HIB, due to my brain mixing up fire pulse and ion pulse. So, nevermind. However, I think procced HIB should go above Gut, as using Gut with HIB already procced risks wasting a proc. Also, shouldn't pulse cannon be almost at the bottom, just above Ion pulse? The priority list seems to contradict this statement:
Quote:With Flame Thrower/Pulse Cannon, you have 2 options: use it immediately every cooldown or wait until 5 stacks of Prototype Flame Thrower/Pulse Generator. Though it is technically a DPS increase to wait for 5 stacks, the increase is extremely minor (~1% with BiS gear), so just use it whenever you feel like it.
That statement implies that the bottom of the priority list should look like:
7. Pulse cannon (5 stacks)
8. Ion pulse
9. Pulse cannon (<5 stacks)—which would never get used as ion pulse has no CD.
(I'll have to back this up with math, but I actually believe that pulse cannon should be used on CD, regardless of how many stacks you have. This is due to the 3 ammo cost over 3 seconds compared to ion pulse's 2 ammo over 1.5s. Using pulse cannon more will eventually result in 1 more ion pulse and 1 less hammer shot.)
In summary, I believe the tactics priority should be this:
1. HIB (with auto-crit proc)
2. Gut
3. Stockstrike (with free proc)
4. Fire pulse
5. Stockstrike
6. HIB
7. Pulse cannon (regardless of stack number)
8. Ion pulse
Quote:Quote:- Accuracy is actually not that bad of a stat for Pyro/Assault, as HIB makes up a respectable fraction of their attacks. As tactics, the proper balance was roughly 150 accuracy + 350 surge, but when I respecced Assault I re-optimized to roughly 200 accuracy + 300 surge.
It really is that bad of a stat for Pyro/Assault. Rail Shot does about 25% of your damage with an average hit of 2800, about 40 times over a 5 minute fight.
At 108% Accuracy, you get a total of 112,000 damage.
At 90% Accuracy , you get a total of 91,840 damage.
... after taking into account 8% boss defense.
Which means 18% Accuracy is worth 20,160 damage (plus Rapid Shots, but that's a minimal increase). Over a 5 minute fight, doing an average of about 450000 damage, that 18% accuracy nets you roughly a 4.5% damage increase, plus whatever measly bit you get from Rapid Shots. Not worth it as a stat.
Where did you see those numbers for "proper balance"?
I got the numbers from my own stat weight calculator (which is analytical, not a simulation). With diminishing returns the way they are, optimum gearing arises from a balance between stats. Because Assault/Pyro uses more ranged attacks and fewer tech attacks, accuracy is more valuable for those specs, so the point of optimum balance is located at higher accuracy.
Your back-of-the-envelope math here is pretty irrelevant. I'd suggest getting 200-250 accuracy rating (depending on overall gear level) as Assault/Pyro, which is 6.5-8%, nowhere near 18%. This is the point where 1 additional point of accuracy is as valuable as 1 point of surge, which is the useful comparison (as those are the stats that you can choose between when picking enhancements and mastercrafts). Again, this is according to my analytical stat weight calculator.
Accuracy is still a bad stat, but it's a little better for this spec than it is for AP/Tactics. If it makes you feel better, you can call it a bad stat for Pyro and a terrible stat for AP.
RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium v2.0 - frmorrison - 03-15-2012 04:32 AM
(03-14-2012 01:28 AM)kray Wrote: Tionese:
Surge > Aim > Power > Tech Power > Crit > Accuracy
Columi:
Crit 0.54=7
While it is true that Surge is the top dps stat for Tionese, seeing that listed first may confuse people. Maybe write:
Surge (until 150)>Aim > Power > Surge (past 150) > Tech Power > Crit > Accuracy
You have a typo in your Crit code (0.54=7).
While Accuracy in general is the worst dps stat (ignoring Alacrity since is not on PT gear), as you get more Surge (past 200), then Accuracy is better than Surge and that is one of your two choices for Enhancements. Accuracy only affects 32% of damage, so it takes a while before Surge becomes weak enough that hit becomes good.
RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium v2.0 - kray - 03-15-2012 06:14 AM
(03-15-2012 04:32 AM)frmorrison Wrote:Thanks. Fact is, I really shouldn't be putting stat weights in at all. It says right at the top, weights change constantly, those guides are only a rough estimate of what you should prioritize at certain gear levels. It is absolutely impossible to create a general priority list, as everyone has different gear. If someone has a metric ton of crit on their gear, that inflates the Surge value, etc. Everything is in balance, and doing 3 sets of stat weights is really all I can do.(03-14-2012 01:28 AM)kray Wrote: Tionese:
Surge > Aim > Power > Tech Power > Crit > Accuracy
Columi:
Crit 0.54=7
While it is true that Surge is the top dps stat for Tionese, seeing that listed first may confuse people. Maybe write:
Surge (until 150)>Aim > Power > Surge (past 150) > Tech Power > Crit > Accuracy
You have a typo in your Crit code (0.54=7).
Quote:While Accuracy in general is the worst dps stat (ignoring Alacrity since is not on PT gear), as you get more Surge (past 200), then Accuracy is better than Surge and that is one of your two choices for Enhancements. Accuracy only affects 32% of damage, so it takes a while before Surge becomes weak enough that hit becomes good.
Again, the stats listed are general guidelines. In a full Rakata set, with no mods changed, you have a ton of Accuracy, and it is nearly worthless. It's only once you're nearly completely optimized that Surge really starts to climb above Accuracy.
How would you guys like to see stat weights? It's wildly difficult to provide a general baseline when everything has DR.
Cosmic,
Do you have a copy of what you're using available? I've been running a ton of sims, looking at math, trying to figure out the final answer on the best priority list for AP/Tactics.
Preliminary results show... that it doesn't really matter. Almost every list I run ends up within the same ~20 dps range. That's with FT versus FT_5, changing position of RB/Gut... there's just not a lot of variation.
RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium v2.0 - frmorrison - 03-15-2012 06:32 AM
(03-15-2012 06:14 AM)kray Wrote: How would you guys like to see stat weights? It's wildly difficult to provide a general baseline when everything has DR.
On second thought, I think the stat weight tables you posted, while interesting, should be removed since it could be very confusing to someone (especially would dislike seeing an energetic Tionese player stacking Surge in every slot and augment and deciding to use the Surge Adrenal, when some of those are the wrong choices).
How about revising the Stat Weights paragraph (copy whatever you like):
Due to the diminishing returns of each stat, a table of stat weights cannot be given. However, a priority can be made at different levels of gearing (i.e. if you have a lot of Crit it's benefit moves down the priority, while the value of Surge goes up). You should generate your OWN STAT WEIGHTS for your particular gear set. As your gear changes, so do the weights and priorities.
Then use the list priorities you already made as they are now.
RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium - blott - 03-15-2012 07:16 AM
I agree the stat weights are distracting and for someone that doesn't really have a good control over what they imply would get easily confused by them. I would suggest doing something like most of the other threads here have done, either use a chart to show the DR paths for each of the stats in total, showing which stats are better in the long run and why you should gear toward that. Or show dps gains from a set amount of points of each stat and then show the large comparisons of this and let people understand why stat weights are what they are. A lot of work no matter what you do so yeah... lol...
RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium - kray - 03-15-2012 07:54 AM
I'll leave it as is for now, and figure out a more generic way to talk about things.
RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium - Nalar - 03-16-2012 08:32 AM
On accuracy, the tooltip for ranged accuracy says Normal attacks at base 90% and Special attacks at 100%. I was always assuming Rail Shot is considered a special attack, was I right in that assumption? Is that 90% for Blaster-attacks only? (quick shots and unload?)
RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium - frmorrison - 03-16-2012 10:20 AM
The 90% hit is for Rapid Shots only. Unload and Rail Shot are special ranged attacks, so have 100% to hit if the target has no defense (note all bosses and players have defense).
RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium - frmorrison - 03-18-2012 02:25 AM
1.2 isn't changing much for Pyrotech much:
Quell is now free (this is great!)
Prototype Particle Accelerator: Proc chance increased to 45% from Flame Burst and 60% from Rocket Punch, from 30% from Flame Burst and 45% from Rocket Punch with a 6 second internal cooldown on procs.
This does reduce burst damage, but seems about the same for PvE damage.
Also it requires CGC to proc PPA, so a nerf to Parakeet builds (you could still play it with CGC, but survival is less).
Advanced Prototype
Charged Gauntlets now triggers from damage dealt such that the bleed caused by Retractable Blade can trigger the buff. It now has a visual effect.
This is a needed buff to AP damage, since each DoT tic can proc the effect.
RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium - Curbobe - 03-19-2012 12:24 AM
(03-18-2012 02:25 AM)frmorrison Wrote: 1.2 isn't changing much for Pyrotech much:
Quell is now free (this is great!)
Prototype Particle Accelerator: Proc chance increased to 45% from Flame Burst and 60% from Rocket Punch, from 30% from Flame Burst and 45% from Rocket Punch with a 6 second internal cooldown on procs.
This does reduce burst damage, but seems about the same for PvE damage.
Also it requires CGC to proc PPA, so a nerf to Parakeet builds (you could still play it with CGC, but survival is less).
The increased proc chance is great, but wtf with 6 seconds? What are we supposed to do in those 6 seconds without any proc chance? Rapid Shots to not run out of ammo when using flame burst or wasting rocket punch? Does not make any sense to me