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+--- Thread: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium (/thread-446.html)
RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium - kray - 03-11-2012 01:49 PM
So here is what we know for sure:
1) 3 ticks of CGC have to occur -somewhere-. Using the calculations inside TOR code, each tick hits for about 450, with the tooltip showing a total of about 1350.
2) With a dot duration of 6 seconds, these ticks will most likely occur either: Immediate + 3s + 6s OR 2s + 4s + 6s
3) The code from TORhead shows the tick interval of 3seconds.
Now then, what we have observed:
Quote:1. If no plasma cell dot is present, a plasma cell proc (from hammer shots or from ion pulse) will do its damage only twice, at 3s and 6s.(from Osmo)
2. If plasma cell is present, a plasma cell proc (from hammer shots or ion pulse) will do its damage three times; immediately, at 3s, and at 6s.
3. If plasma cell is present and its duration is refreshed by a HIB (from the talent high friction bolts), no damage is dealt immediately, and two ticks of damage will be dealt, at 3s and 6s.
4. High impact bolt alone does not seem capable of applying the plasma cell dot. I tested this by opening with incendiary round and then HIB, and in over 50 tries, no plasma cell was applied.
Additionally, I have observed on multiple occasions an immediate tick of the dot while attacking mobs which are COMPLETELY untouched. This, to me, is a common occurrence especially while doing the Pylon Puzzle on the normal add spawns. This directly contradicts Osmo's #1. Perhaps a difference between PT/VG, or perhaps a new bit of bug related to the Vanguard-only Pulse Generator issue introduced in 1.1.5. I have hardly played at all since Tuesday, so this is a possible explanation in discrepancies between our observations.
What would make the most sense to me is that the dot ticks immediately, then at 3 and 6. Unfortunately, we've got multiple people all saying different things right now. Until I see a video or I can download TOR on my laptop, I won't be changing my sim just yet.
However, the ramifications of this are pretty huge. After cursory glance at my code, it could mean we're performing as much as 100 DPS worse than what we're simulating at right now.
RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium - Cosmic Osmo - 03-12-2012 04:17 AM
Quote:1. If no plasma cell dot is present, a plasma cell proc (from hammer shots or from ion pulse) will do its damage only twice, at 3s and 6s.
Here's some video of this happening, that shows the mob only taking 2 ticks of the dot after an ion pulse. I turned on mob HP so you can confirm that there is no hidden damage that's not in the flytext.
Ion pulse tooltip: 1116-1185
Plasma call tooltip: 1409 ( =470*3)
Expected damage dealt: 2525-2594
Mob HP at start of video: 8849
Mob HP at end of video: 6761
Total damage taken: 2088
RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium - Keren - 03-12-2012 04:56 AM
Just went to Quesh with my BH Pyro specced and I det everytime a initial tick with the application of the debuff!
So flame burst + 3 dot ticks, at 0, 3 and 6 seconds. Didn't can make a vid of it, but I can't imagine it does ever act different
RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium - kray - 03-12-2012 05:36 AM
Very interesting. What it's looking at right now is that the initial tick of Plasma Cell is not always occurring, but the initial tick of Combustible Gas Cylinder does.
Can another Bounty Hunter confirm that they see an initial tick every time? Hopefully I'll be able to finish downloading tonight and verify myself. Gotta love the uber speed of 4G cards in San Francisco =P.
Edit: Osmo, I can't thank you enough for the testing work you're doing.
RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium - blott - 03-12-2012 06:40 PM
So seeing all this got me thinking that I had never seen anything close to the issues you guys are talking about with CGC, so I did 5 tests of it.
Test 1 - Apply CGC dot with FB.
Findings - FB dmg hits/CGC dot goes up and does initial tick / 2 dot ticks follow @ 3s and 6s. ( in the vid you will see a ~170 tick happen that was my trinket before I took it off for the other tests. sorry :/ can redo this one if you guys want. )
Test 2 - Apply CGC dot with Rapid Shots.
Findings - Rapid Shots dmg hits/CGC dot goes up and does initial tick / 2 dot ticks follow @ 3s and 6s.
Test 3 - Apply IM and proc CGC dot with Rail Shot.
Findings - IM is on target, Rail Shot dmg hits/CGC dot goes up and does initial tick / 2 dot ticks follow @ 3s and 6s.
Test 4 - Apply CGC dot with FB and overlap to see if initial tick dmg repeats or dot continues as normal.
Findings - Heal before fighting a strong mob. BUT you can see if you continue to hit FB with the CGC dot on the target it will continue to do the initial tick over and over.
Test 5 - Same as 4 except starting with Rapid Shots to apply CGC and then overlapping with FB.
Findings - Same as 4 initial CGC goes up does dmg then FB CGC goes over and does initial CGC dmg again.
as you can see my video edit skills are turrrible so enjoy.
RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium - kray - 03-12-2012 10:49 PM
Thanks a ton blott. You guys rock. Looks like, in that case, that Troopers might be bugged right now. Powertechs are behaving as expected, however.
RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium - frmorrison - 03-13-2012 03:56 AM
Blott, what happens with to the CGCDoT damage when the DoT is reapplied? For example, if I use FB to put up the DoT so I get a tic, then 1.5seconds later I reuse FB so I get another DoT tic. Do I lose 2/3 of the first CGC DoT from FB since I reapplied it? If the DoT doesn't roll its damage, is it bad to use 2x FB in a row?
RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium - kray - 03-13-2012 04:35 AM
(03-13-2012 03:56 AM)frmorrison Wrote: Blott, what happens with to the IGC DoT damage when the DoT is reapplied? For example, if I use FB to put up the DoT so I get a tic, then 1.5seconds later I reuse FB so I get another DoT tic. Do I lose 2/3 of the first IGC DoT from FB since I reapplied it? If the DoT doesn't roll its damage, is it bad to use 2x FB in a row?
*CGC, not IGC
Damage is not rolled in, proccing CGC with CGC already active cancels the original effect and creates a new one. However, hitting 2xFB in a row is not a problem because of that immediate tick. Look at it this way for an example:
Scenario 1: You hit FB, ticking CGC at 0, 3, and 6 seconds. No new CGC dots during its duration.
Scenario 2: You hit FB, ticking CGC1 at 0. At 1.5, you hit FB again, deleting CGC1 and creating CGC2 which ticks at 1.5, 4.5, and 7.5.
Because the GCD is 1.5sec and the tick interval of CGC is 3.0sec, proccing it multiple times in a row is actually beneficial, as it effectively reduces the tick interval to 1.5sec.
RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium - kray - 03-13-2012 05:58 AM
Wow. Just wow. I changed my simulator to reflect the new tick behavior we've established here, and it's not looking good. 8/5/28 Pyrotech is now generating about 100 DPS less than it used to be, putting its cap at about 1650 DPS with what I cobbled together as a close-to-BiS set. That "1650" is probably not our max (the gearset I made is flawed), but the result is the same: looks like we're doing about 100 less than I thought.
The reduction in DPS is like this: Previously, I modeled the 3 ticks at 2, 4, and 6 seconds, and in some situations also modeled an immediate proc (looking back, it was based on a lot of assumption). Now, those 3 ticks are at 0, 3, and 6 seconds. Same amount of ticks, but at a new interval. To see the effect of this, let's examine the following situation.
0.0s - Flame Burst, proccing CGC
1.5s - Rocket Punch
3.0s - Rail Shot, refreshing/proccing CGC
In my old model, you'd see a tick of CGC at 0.0s, 2.0s, 3.0s.
In the new, correct model, you see a tick at 0.0s and 3.0s.
The issue here is that with our spam we almost NEVER EVER go for over 3 seconds without a proc. Rapid Shots, Flame Burst, and Rail Shot all have an extremely high or 100% chance to proc CGC. With a 2sec interval, we would occasionally see Tick #2 while using Rocket Punch or Incendiary Missile, but now we almost NEVER see Tick #2.
This is obviously pretty dumb, because our "damage over time" effect is really just a "proc extra damage" attack. We see Tick #1 constantly, Tick #2, and Tick #3 literally never over an entire 5 minute fight.
I'll update my sim to reflect this change shortly.
RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium - blott - 03-13-2012 06:35 AM
Oi. Well that make things very interesting.
However I am not seeing nearly any dps loss vs your old sheet with 1.1.5, 1704.48 @ 4k tests with 8/6/27, and then with 1.1, 1705.92 @ 4k Tests with 8/6/27.
I am in basically bis (link to my gear on mr.robot) and it does not seem like as big a change as I thought it would be from what you were saying. Is my sheet not working right?