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RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium - kray - 02-28-2012 04:00 PM
(02-28-2012 06:32 AM)KayGBee Wrote:(02-28-2012 03:54 AM)Agenteusa Wrote:(02-28-2012 03:39 AM)frmorrison Wrote: Every proper pyro build has puncture for the armor ignore on rail shot. It is worth the three talent points since it is the main nuke.
The only question is when do you get the skill when leveling. Maybe after getting 18 in pyro.
Hmm I see , thanks for the reply.
Can you link your build so I can compare it to mine and evaluate which points I would consider dropping since I don´t have it atm?
The "when" to get it, doesn´t really matter since I´m 50.
Would it be somethign along these lines?
http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301hMhZMcZfIobzGhMc.1
This is the spec I currently use. http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301hMbZMsZfhbbdGhMc.1
I chose Infrared Sensors instead of Integrated Cardio Package for the increased mitigation, though it's a toss up.
When simming, I looked at full SR vs. full Burnout. 3/3 Burnout and 2/3 SR was slightly higher.
I've played 31pt Pyro and liked it but I have noticed a DPS increase using my current spec. Simming showed an increase, but I saw a noticeable improvement on my Council Fight. I go against the same person and was typically the 3rd or 4th complete with 31pt and was the first using 28.
Obviously we have no concrete data, but the sim and my observations are holding up.
Howdy folks. A few things to note here:
1) Depending on Sol and Gwarrr, I may be taking over the compendium page. I'm pretty sure Sol doesn't play a PT main anymore, and I'd be more than happy to write up things. Regardless, expect an OP update soon because...
2) After I make a few performance tweaks that will allow stat weight calculations, and finish programming in a couple key features I've been meaning to do (like support for Carolina Parakeet and Iron Fist), I'll be releasing the Powertech sim as 1.0. From what I've seen, my numbers make sense and I can't find any errors in the programming.
3) Here's my thoughts on specs, and I want to program something into the sim to back it up. I still use a 31 point spec for the added ranged dps and Automated Defenses. I have full confidence that Thermal Detonator will -eventually- be worth it, but for now, think of this. In a perfect world, you rarely if ever hit 0 heat, but in the imperfect hecticness of battle sometimes you might get a PPA proc and use it while you're under ~15 heat, which would probably push you to 0 heat, leaving 1 (or even 2) ticks of passive dissipation wasted.
I've been doing this lately, and it seems to work well. If I'm at low heat and have a PPA proc, I hit Thermal Detonator, then the PPA proc. I'm not wasting any potential procs and I'm not wasting any heat, it's pure extra damage. Even with the autotrigger of CGC, Flame Burst will only hit for about the same amount as a TD hit, and TD has a higher surge modifier thanks to talents, so it crits for much harder. Simply put: throw in a TD if you have a PPA proc while at low heat.
Looking at my sims for my current gear:
Flame Burst - 1000 / 1700 crit
CGC - 400 / 830 crit
CGC w/ Burnout - 460 / 1050 crit
TD - 1500 / 3000 crit
Flame Burst + CGC = 1400
Flame Burst + CGC crit = 2530
Flame Burst + CGC burnout crit = 2750
Simply put, TD does more damage on a 35% armor boss, discounting the PPA proc. So, why not?
RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium - blott - 02-28-2012 04:50 PM
I WOULD LOVE A NEW THREAD! We have learned so much sense beta that could be posted to help folks with simple questions.
AWESOME.
First off are you using 8/2/31 or 4/6/31? I used the 4/6/31 for a very long time and felt very happy with it having TD for points when you are at range is nice. But in all honesty if feels like a heat sink.
When I was using this spec was also early on when I had very little gear as well, making SR very minor. Now that we are clearing NM and what not 2 months later, we have all geared up a HUGE amount which made SR a much better investment for the points. Which makes TD very very hard to take. I also don't feel like I am at range anywhere as much as I used to be and don't need another option for range.
What do you mean by 35% armor bosses? do you just mean debuffed?
Also I feel like you are comparing the wrong things. In terms of damage we are not really talking about TD vs. just FB its TD vs. FB and a PPA proc chance.
All these things together is what leads me to thinking AD and TD are a huge waste as they are now. Which is shown by a dps increase of ~75 dps according to your sim
RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium - kray - 02-28-2012 05:34 PM
(02-28-2012 04:50 PM)blott Wrote: I WOULD LOVE A NEW THREAD! We have learned so much sense beta that could be posted to help folks with simple questions.
AWESOME.
First off are you using 8/2/31 or 4/6/31? I used the 4/6/31 for a very long time and felt very happy with it having TD for points when you are at range is nice. But in all honesty if feels like a heat sink.
When I was using this spec was also early on when I had very little gear as well, making SR very minor. Now that we are clearing NM and what not 2 months later, we have all geared up a HUGE amount which made SR a much better investment for the points. Which makes TD very very hard to take. I also don't feel like I am at range anywhere as much as I used to be and don't need another option for range.
What do you mean by 35% armor bosses? do you just mean debuffed?
Also I feel like you are comparing the wrong things. In terms of damage we are not really talking about TD vs. just FB its TD vs. FB and a PPA proc chance.
All these things together is what leads me to thinking AD and TD are a huge waste as they are now. Which is shown by a dps increase of ~75 dps according to your sim
I use 4/6/31 right now, but you're right that at this point in my gearing (only one piece of Tionese left), SR is probably worth more than the extra 3% crit. Requires more experimentation with the sim. Grats on the NiM clears (I assume you're referring to Nightmare?)
35% armor means that the boss mitigates 35% of kinetic/energy damage. I think it winds up being like 8600 armor, I forget the number off the top of my head. This is before debuffs and talents.
And I'm not comparing the wrong things at all. I'm proposing to only use TD when you have a PPA proc and are under 15 heat. This way heat doesn't get wasted, and you're not losing the possibility of another PPA proc. IF and only if you have a PPA proc already, and for some reason want to delay it, TD is the best option.
I'm also a fan of keeping TD around for its usefulness in burst situations, and I can see uses in these fights:
Eternity Vault:
Annihilation Droid - Useful during knockbacks or when dodging from behind the pillar to fire a shot off during Missile Salvo
Gharj - Useful during knockbacks.
Pylons - No use here
Council - Hard hitter to help someone who might be having trouble after your add inevitably dies first
Soa - Useful if kiting/popping an orb, or to preload damage for burn phases in P3
Karagga's Palace:
Bonecrusher - Eh, possibly useful with all the running around
Jarg and Sorno - No use here
Foreman Crusher - No use here
G4-B3 - Useful if you end up doing the puzzle for some reason. Again, preloading damage is useful as well.
Karagga - No use here
As you can see, uses for it do exist. Yes, you might be able to Rail Shot or refresh IM during these periods, but I'm working under a worst case scenario. Honestly, it really comes down to preference. I'll very often use it while I run in to avoid pulling threat off the tank with an immediate fatty Rail Shot crit. When it comes down to a difference of ~5% simulated DPS, it's really not that big of a deal.
RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium - Rooks - 02-28-2012 07:28 PM
It feels weird to say it, but until they do a pass on Thermal Det/Assault Plastique, 31 point assault builds are kind of a novelty. Yeah, you get the ranged attack, but you still have it as Sticky Grenade (though at less damage).
I agree that personal preference can play a part, and that is totally acceptable. But from the min/max standpoint, it isn't quite there.
As a side note on Soa, you'll find your fight goes a lot smoother if you just face detonate (just run into them) the balls rather than kite them. Vanguard/PT with a sorc/sage bubble and Reactive shield take almost no damage (or sometimes none!) from them, even in 16m nightmare.
Back on topic, I'd love to be able to have my 31 point skill, but I feel I need to milk every last ounce of DPS I can to stay viable with my fellow DPSers nearing 100% Rakata geared.
(02-26-2012 02:21 AM)frmorrison Wrote:(02-25-2012 10:45 PM)Korbben Wrote: our TOP spec DPS is doing almoast 1600 DPS right ? how much the other classes are doing ?
Kray's sheet shows about 1300 dps with 28 Pyro using the default settings, not sure what gear is used for that default. Hybrid Madness Sith Sorcerer dps is about 1330 dps (with full Rakata gear). Pyro certainly doesn't do 1600 dps, and don't seem to need a dps bump in PvE.
There's no way we're even close to what Commandos and Gunslingers are doing. Sages I am not certain of.
RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium - Cosmic Osmo - 02-29-2012 01:27 AM
(02-28-2012 07:28 PM)Rooks Wrote: There's no way we're even close to what Commandos and Gunslingers are doing. Sages I am not certain of.
There's more to DPSing than DPS. There's also no way a gunslinger will pick up G4-B3 so debuff stacks can fall off your main tank, and there's no way a commando continues to DPS without interruption while running past Soa to take their lightning ball. Neither of those classes will ever know the joy of harpoon.
So, maybe we pay a little in DPS for our other versatility and for having nearly everything instant-cast. Until the PvE in this game actually becomes challenging, it doesn't matter.
RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium - blott - 02-29-2012 06:10 AM
TY Kray
But I think you just dig TD too much! I think the strat differences is also some of it we have melee stand in on droid and gharj now days, and our bonecrusher strat has melee eat swipes.(02-29-2012 01:27 AM)Cosmic Osmo Wrote: There's more to DPSing than DPS. There's also no way a gunslinger will pick up G4-B3 so debuff stacks can fall off your main tank, and there's no way a commando continues to DPS without interruption while running past Soa to take their lightning ball. Neither of those classes will ever know the joy of harpoon.
You shouldn't need to ever taunt fabricator... so yeah... as for the soa thing I'm not really sure what you mean, we cant RP outside of the melee pack and if you get to far FB wont reach either.
Are there any good sheets that have the dps from other classes simed like kray's? I would think thats the only way we could compare really.
RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium - Keren - 02-29-2012 04:42 PM
(02-29-2012 06:10 AM)blott Wrote: You shouldn't need to ever taunt fabricator... so yeah... as for the soa thing I'm not really sure what you mean, we cant RP outside of the melee pack and if you get to far FB wont reach either.
+ Rapid shots + explosive dart + refresh of incendiary missle ^^
I use now the 28 pyro spec and I'm very satisfied with it. But one thing iritate me, flame burst and rail shot seem to have 100% chance to proc combustable gas cylinder. I know the talent for rail shot to refresh the effekt, but not to provide the debuff. You can get 100% uptime of it, seems buggy and a big reason why pyro trump adv. proto.
RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium - Rooks - 02-29-2012 08:22 PM
(02-29-2012 01:27 AM)Cosmic Osmo Wrote:(02-28-2012 07:28 PM)Rooks Wrote: There's no way we're even close to what Commandos and Gunslingers are doing. Sages I am not certain of.
There's more to DPSing than DPS. There's also no way a gunslinger will pick up G4-B3 so debuff stacks can fall off your main tank, and there's no way a commando continues to DPS without interruption while running past Soa to take their lightning ball. Neither of those classes will ever know the joy of harpoon.
So, maybe we pay a little in DPS for our other versatility and for having nearly everything instant-cast. Until the PvE in this game actually becomes challenging, it doesn't matter.
I do enjoy the versatility, but only if it comes with the 5% tradeoff Bioware mentioned. I don't think it is fair for our DPS to be behind on the off chance we have to taunt a mob because the tank effed up.
As I mentioned previously, melee traditionally hit harder than ranged, but had that balanced with the fact that being melee was generally a harder role because we had to run around a lot and avoid AOEs. This is definitely the case in TOR (the harder role), but some (not all) melee classes are lacking (and while you can argue that Assault is doing alright, Tactics is definitely not).
My hope is that before Bioware implements their combat log, they'll do a serious pass on the classes.. because they know once we can parse data, they're going to be held accountable.
RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium - frmorrison - 03-01-2012 07:25 AM
A Bioware dev said that advanced classes will be within 5% dps of each other? I don't recall that, but I do recall them saying classes will be similar in dps (this statement could be correct if similar means 10% dps). AP/Tactics is behind in dps, but makes up for it because it is easy to play so a bad player can perform better with AP. I recall it was 1200 dps versus 1300 dps when simulating the two trees with the default gear, which is within 10%.
Bioware has been tuning classes, Jugs got a dps increase, Ops got a dps decrease, and Assassins got a dps decrease by nerfing hybrid builds. Before the tuning those classes were hurting or doing too well. I believe if something is noticeable wrong with balance, it will get fixed.
RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium - Rooks - 03-01-2012 09:11 PM
(03-01-2012 07:25 AM)frmorrison Wrote: I believe if something is noticeable wrong with balance, it will get fixed.
That is my hope, as well. I don't think Vanguard/PT DPS is horrible, but it needs a look. That is my point.
Taking this topic in another direction, my guild is taking a stab at finally clearing 16 man nightmare HH tomorrow (we're 4/5 so far this week). We ran into trouble on the Jarg & Sorno fight, so to ease the damage going out in the carbonizer droid phases, I specced into the Parakeet build to act as our 'second and a half' tank.
I stayed in the build as DPS for our Crusher and Fab kills, even though I wasn't needed for a tanking role at all. My biggest contribution (other than DPS) was Smoke Grenades on Crusher's Frenzy, and to help slow the armor debuff stacks on our tanks for Fab.
Smoke Grenade/Oil Slick does seem to have insane utility, especially for progression raids, so for our Karagga attempts tomorrow, I am looking at this spec, and just embracing the utility in exchange for a slight DPS loss:
http://knotor.com/skills#AgsLAhyRs8rT2tozU1pqc4qRmqu6y9IA
My question is, has anyone tried this sort of build in a raid yet, and is there any way you think I could squeeze a bit more DPS out of it by shuffling a point or two around (2/3 Burnout for 3/3 Focused impact)? And yes, I am the only vanguard in the raid right now.