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+--- Thread: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium (/thread-446.html)
RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium - KayGBee - 02-11-2012 01:36 PM
Not sure what you are looking at for your comparison. I'm pyro 8/2/31 and my TD typically hits for 3k+ while FB is around 1200. Both have 16 heat cost. Granted that is just straight out using the ability once. TD does have a cool down while FB does not. I agree that for a top tier ability it is rather lack luster.
Pyro is definitely a spec that you have to watch your heat management. When I pay attention to my heat everything goes fine but I can easily get off track and wind up with high heat levels. True the spec is reliant on PPA procs for max DPS, but overall it works out fine.
Also, I put 2/2 GAJ and 2/3 ICP to help a little with heat.
Asmiroth is the man on the numbers and I would suggest checking out his spreadsheet.
RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium - kray - 02-11-2012 08:21 PM
(02-11-2012 12:14 PM)Saylin Wrote: So I have been thinking about switching to pyro from AP and have begun researching. The biggest thing it seems I have found is that the pyro cap talent (thermal detonator) is basically just a waste of an ability doing less damage per heat expended then flame burst. I played around with pyro awhile back and remember thinking that if I didn't get my Rail shot procs I was basically screwed heat wise, so i wanted a spec that would address that. Playing around with specs I thought of this.
http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301ZMsrbRbckZfhrbzh.1
the spec is 0/22/18 with a floater point that can be placed anywhere.
The big things you pick up are
Retractable blade
Charged gauntlets for insta crit rail shots
hydraulic overrides
prototype particle accelerator (free rail shots)
I figure obviously the spec would revolve around maintaining your dots, using free rocket punches and rail shots on proc, and flame burst as a filler.
You also loose a few big things that are included in almost all other specs (like 9% aim).
Thoughts?
Before I say -anything- I want to point out to As: the spreadsheet currently has Rocket Punch costing 25 heat. It costs 16 heat. I'd like to help you code this stuff or get some numbers from you to code my own, hit me up in a PM!
Anyhow, moving on.
I like the concept of it, but not sure how it would math out. There are a few points misspent in the spec, but I won't get into that until it actually looks viable. I did take the liberty, however, of putting 2 points into Rail Loaders since this build relies on RP+RS so much.
First off, you're losing 9% damage on Rocket Punch and Rail Shot, 30% Surge on CGC, Rail Shot, and Inc Missile, 3% Tech Crit, and the <30% periodic damage buff, plus the possibility of 9% Aim and 6% fire damage (talents from Pyrotech and Shield Tech). But, what you gain is free Rocket Punch procs, crit Rail Shot procs, and Retractable Blade.
After doing some math and toying around with the spreadsheet, I still found a 31pt Pyrotech build coming out on top. To support this, here are some points:
- Assuming ~35% crit (fairly low), the crit RS talent only adds an extra 65% crit. Compare this to a constant 9% damage and 30% surge and the crit talent loses a lot of value, even more when you factor in the low proc rate.
- With the absence of Immolate, getting free Rocket Punches is going to be few and far between, with only a 30% chance to proc the Rocket Punch. This talent truly isn't going to be utilized that well when you have to manage heat from maintaining both IM and RB -- Automated Defenses makes much more of a difference than most people assume... that's a lot of free IMs over the course of a fight!
- Retractable Blade is sexy, yes, but looking at the previous 2 talents, it has a lot to balance out. You originally stated your creation of this build arose from the lackluster Thermal Detonator. Open up your talents and take a look -- even with the 15% added damage to the bleed, TD does more base damage. Obviously this changes as TD is modified by armor, but with the first 2 points in mind, RB can hardly beat out TD much less the combination of all those other talents.
Now, listen, I could be wrong. I'm basing a lot of this off of As' spreadsheet which, due to it being in the horrendous OpenOffice, I haven't done a TON of work with yet. If someone more in-tune with the spreadsheet wants to confirm my musings, please do!
RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium - Saylin - 02-12-2012 03:32 AM
Everything you said sounded about right, played around with the spec a bit last night. The first thing I noticed is that mobs either seemed to die in seconds or my heat got to high (no rail shot procs) and I was boned. I also really got used to the AP fixed heat reduction that makes transitions between trash packs MUCH easier. The amount of rocket punches was not only lack luster but due to the cd on RP sometimes I would go towards 30 seconds without a proc. I thought that free rocket punches would help with the "high heat gen" of pyro...turns out all I really did is make a spec that use just as much heat as 31 point pyro with much less damage.
I also really don't like that the 4 set bonus offers basically NO bonus to pyro since they use free rail shots anyways >.>
RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium - Duketogo13 - 02-12-2012 08:49 PM
(02-11-2012 01:36 PM)KayGBee Wrote: Not sure what you are looking at for your comparison. I'm pyro 8/2/31 and my TD typically hits for 3k+ while FB is around 1200. Both have 16 heat cost. Granted that is just straight out using the ability once. TD does have a cool down while FB does not. I agree that for a top tier ability it is rather lack luster.
Pyro is definitely a spec that you have to watch your heat management. When I pay attention to my heat everything goes fine but I can easily get off track and wind up with high heat levels. True the spec is reliant on PPA procs for max DPS, but overall it works out fine.
Also, I put 2/2 GAJ and 2/3 ICP to help a little with heat.
Asmiroth is the man on the numbers and I would suggest checking out his spreadsheet.
I assume this is in response to me. I suppose what I was getting at is that TD does basically the same damage as FB+the guaranteed Combustible Cylinder proc but that FB also has the 30% PPA chance. I realize you'll get some over lap of Combustible Cylinder if you keep spamming FB. But I just question if the extra talents picked up by the points used by getting TD could be put to better use to get a tiny but more dps over all. You could easily pick up the extra 6% aim and 3% railshot dmg or etc..
RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium - KayGBee - 02-14-2012 02:02 AM
Sorry Duke my post was in response to Saylin. I realized afterwards that I forgot to quote the post.
However, I am curious how you are not already getting Steely Resolve and Rail Loaders when taking 31 points in pyro for TD?
The only thing I can see to make not taking TD beneficial would be dropping the last 6 points in Pyro to pick up Puncture, Hot Iron, and Prototype Cylinders. Though you would lose Burnout for the 30% burn phase bonus and increased crit.
RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium - Duketogo13 - 02-14-2012 08:00 PM
(02-14-2012 02:02 AM)KayGBee Wrote: Sorry Duke my post was in response to Saylin. I realized afterwards that I forgot to quote the post.
However, I am curious how you are not already getting Steely Resolve and Rail Loaders when taking 31 points in pyro for TD?
The only thing I can see to make not taking TD beneficial would be dropping the last 6 points in Pyro to pick up Puncture, Hot Iron, and Prototype Cylinders. Though you would lose Burnout for the 30% burn phase bonus and increased crit.
Well what I was suggesting is this. This is my current build below
http://db.darthhater.com/skill_calc/bounty_hunter/powertech/#::fef11df6efef12ef3e6fefe2fe4fe:
I was suggesting that you could use this build instead. If you were to get rid of TD you could adjust those points here.
http://db.darthhater.com/skill_calc/bounty_hunter/powertech/#::fef5df5ef6efef12ef3e6fef2efe3f2e:
I know some people have suggested this already but I feel no one has really done much work on whether FB is worth it over TD when you take into account PPA and Combust Cylinder Proc AND the added talents you pick up.
RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium - blott - 02-14-2012 09:07 PM
(02-14-2012 08:00 PM)Duketogo13 Wrote: I know some people have suggested this already but I feel no one has really done much work on whether FB is worth it over TD when you take into account PPA and Combust Cylinder Proc AND the added talents you pick up.
its been discussed in this very thread, and you can model it easily with the two spreadsheets that are here on this thread, and it is almost always a dps loss to not have AD and TD. I have not run the numbers recently with the new surge changes but I would guess would be even more of a dps loss not having them now.
*edit*
got bored so ran some numbers with the sheet I am using, heavily modded and isnt very friendly so dont want to really share it around but its mostly using MM's sheet.
this is with the new surge values so I took a kinda rough dps hit almost 100 according to the sheet because of my stacking :/ but anyways here you go.
stats
aim - 1580
power - 392
tech power - 1217
accuracy - 160
crit rating - 223
surge rating - 371
builds
4 / 6 / 31 - 1559.08
7 / 6 / 28 - 1523.72
a lot closer then I thought it would be for sure, I guess the increased aim really helps
RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium - Rooks - 02-15-2012 03:24 AM
The build(s) I am running are similar to other 28 pt assault ones, though as I never PvP I find my second and third tier allotments different, and more useful.
http://knotor.com/skills#AgsHBhyy09qhytszU1pqc4qRmqu6y9IA
http://knotor.com/skills#AgsIBRyz09rK2zNTWmpzipGaq7rL0gAA
I'd be interested in the math, because I don't believe for a second that a build with Assault Plastique is going to outperform the 28 point build (I have no problem being wrong, though). I am unsure if people are subbing in Sticky grenade for the absent AP (Don't, unless you are somehow at range), but I fill that GCD with Ion Pulse with a chance for another HiB (which, for me, hits harder than AP).
As I mentioned in another thread here, I am more curious about the value of Blaster Augs vs 3/3 Steely Resolve... as in, is Augs + 2/3 SR better than no Augs, but 3/3 SR?
RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium - thrakkemarn - 02-15-2012 03:00 PM
(02-15-2012 03:24 AM)Rooks Wrote: I'd be interested in the math, because I don't believe for a second that a build with Assault Plastique is going to outperform the 28 point build (I have no problem being wrong, though). I am unsure if people are subbing in Sticky grenade for the absent AP (Don't, unless you are somehow at range), but I fill that GCD with Ion Pulse with a chance for another HiB (which, for me, hits harder than AP).
As I mentioned in another thread here, I am more curious about the value of Blaster Augs vs 3/3 Steely Resolve... as in, is Augs + 2/3 SR better than no Augs, but 3/3 SR?
Yeah I'm pretty curious about this build too. I've been saying to myself that Thermal Detonator is not worth it, and there HAS to be a better build and rotation without it. Not that I dislike TD, I just think it's a waste of skill points to go that high.
The main reason I think Prototype Cylinder/Blaster Augs is better is because it stacks with Burnout and synergizes so well with Firebug/Assault Trooper. The downside is it doesn't affect the crit chance on Rail Shot/HiB because that is a Ranged attack and not Tech. 3% Aim benefits all your abilities, but unless your Aim is sky high I think 3% tech crit is better.
Maybe even consider this variant? Lose 1% tech crit and 10% damage on mobs < 30% HP for 3% Aim? Probably not worth it. http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301hMhZMsZfhbbdGhMM.1
RE: Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium - kray - 02-15-2012 03:58 PM
On the note of the discussion we're having right now, I'd like to take a moment to let y'all know about my simulation project I have going on. In order to keep sim discussion out of this thread, head over to this post to see what's up.
