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RE: Scoundrel/Operative DPS Compendium - suleria - 12-10-2011 12:07 PM
Sol Wrote:Can you please explain this further as I'm not 100% certain what you mean and don't' want to answer incorrectly.
If stim boost is down and you use Shiv-> Stim Boost -> Rifle Shot you will have stim boost up 1.5 seconds earlier than if you use rifle shot -> Shiv -> stim boost. Stim boost over the course of 1.5 seconds regenerates 2.25 energy. being below 80 energy costs 1 energy per second
Sol Wrote:This is absolutely true, however for the purposes of a priority you are generally taking into account a patchwerks style of fight, not every changing circumstance that could possibly happen. There are several different priorities based on different types of encounters. This priority is only there as a base line to give an indication of how important abilities are when compared to others. It is up to the player to adapt them accordingly to each encounter.
I think something more on the lines of "Keep energy as high as possible without risking reaching full energy by using rifle shot" would be more appropriate. In almost all realistic situations attempting to hold off on energy abilities until above 90 will cause more harm than good.
Sol Wrote:I have entertained this notion myself. Previously the tooltip on Torhead suggested that the damage of acid blade was 4 times greater than that of backstab, which is why I discounted it. However they have adjusted this to what I would think is the correct level and now it adds a much more moderate DoT that doesn't scale as well as backstab does. That said I'm still not sure that I wouldn't want to be keeping 50% armour penetration up on the target anyways and it will still buff all of our attacks, even if only moderately. This iwll require some further testing once a spread sheet has been developed for the operative and I can play around with relative armour values.
actually with further research Acid blade does not seem to have a cooldown. So it looks like youll just be using both on backstab cooldown. Also the Damage per energy on a Acid Bladed backstab might be high enough for it to be worth ignoring energy regeneration considerations to use backstab on cooldown.
RE: Scoundrel/Operative DPS Compendium - CaseyTheRetard - 12-10-2011 03:20 PM
(12-10-2011 11:10 AM)Sol Wrote: 6.5*1.5 = 9.25 energy per second.
Not that it affects your conclusion, but 6.5*1.5=9.75.
RE: Scoundrel/Operative DPS Compendium - Sol - 12-10-2011 06:32 PM
(12-10-2011 03:20 PM)CaseyTheRetard Wrote: Not that it affects your conclusion, but 6.5*1.5=9.75.
Yes, it was a typo and I meant 9.75.
Suleria Wrote:If stim boost is down and you use Shiv-> Stim Boost -> Rifle Shot you will have stim boost up 1.5 seconds earlier than if you use rifle shot -> Shiv -> stim boost. Stim boost over the course of 1.5 seconds regenerates 2.25 energy. being below 80 energy costs 1 energy per second
Okay, I get what you're saying now. Firstly though you are never going to let Stim Boost drop off do you should clip it just before it ends. As such compare your scenario (1) against mine (2):
You're at 85 energy and Stim boost needs refreshing -
(1) Shiv down to 70, regain 8.5 over the GCD back to 78.5, stim boost then flurry up to 87, then flurry again back to 96.75 compared to:
(2) Flurry at 85 energy up to 94.75, shiv down to 79.75, regain 9.75 over the GCD up to 89.5, then Stim Boost and Flurry after up to 99.25?
Same amount of moves, however my priority nets you 2.5 more energy, and even if Stim Boost falls off, I'm still ahead by 0.25.
As stated, better to be safe on the safe side and simply Rifle shot whenever you're sub 90 energy.
Suleria Wrote:I think something more on the lines of "Keep energy as high as possible without risking reaching full energy by using rifle shot" would be more appropriate. In almost all realistic situations attempting to hold off on energy abilities until above 90 will cause more harm than good.
That is your opinion but not mine. Just because you're interpreting it one way, doesn't make the way I've stated it impractical, you simply like thinking about it in a different way. You are only using 90 energy as a guide, because nowhere is there an actual figure for current energy unless you mouseover the bar, which is completely impractical. So when you see approximately 10% of your bar gone i.e. below 90 energy, weave in Rifle shot to keep it in the optimal regen level.
Suleria Wrote:actually with further research Acid blade does not seem to have a cooldown. So it looks like youll just be using both on backstab cooldown. Also the Damage per energy on a Acid Bladed backstab might be high enough for it to be worth ignoring energy regeneration considerations to use backstab on cooldown.
Acid blade has no CD and you'll be using it on CD in conjunction with backstab. I'm still interested in testing it out further though, as Backstab has a much higher coefficient of 1.94 compared to 0.31 for Acid blade. With higher gear levels this may prove enough of a difference to leave off Acid blade from Backstabs. As of now though, I would be including Acid Blade on every Backstab, until definitively proven otherwise.
RE: Scoundrel/Operative DPS Compendium - Bnol - 12-10-2011 07:51 PM
(12-10-2011 06:32 PM)Sol Wrote: Okay, I get what you're saying now. Firstly though you are never going to let Stim Boost drop off do you should clip it just before it ends. As such compare your scenario (1) against mine (2):
You're at 85 energy and Stim boost needs refreshing -
(1) Shiv down to 70, regain 8.5 over the GCD back to 78.5, stim boost then flurry up to 87, then flurry again back to 96.75 compared to:
(2) Flurry at 85 energy up to 94.75, shiv down to 79.75, regain 9.75 over the GCD up to 89.5, then Stim Boost and Flurry after up to 99.25?
Same amount of moves, however my priority nets you 2.5 more energy, and even if Stim Boost falls off, I'm still ahead by 0.25.
As stated, better to be safe on the safe side and simply Rifle shot whenever you're sub 90 energy.
While you might be ahead on energy you have pushed Shiv one GCD down the line. You can make up energy both because of encounter mechanics (moving out of melee for aoe, target switching, etc.) and with Adrenaline Probe, but you can't make up GCDs. There are virtually no Patchwerk style fights (Infernal Council maybe), as the majority of fights require melee to move out of melee range quite frequently (or target swapping), so running at a slight deficit might produce better results.
Sol Wrote:You are only using 90 energy as a guide, because nowhere is there an actual figure for current energy unless you mouseover the bar, which is completely impractical. So when you see approximately 10% of your bar gone i.e. below 90 energy, weave in Rifle shot to keep it in the optimal regen level.
I just saw it showing health and force current/max and percentage on this Sorc stream http://www.twitch.tv/monkeygenius/b/301543618. I would assume it works for energy as well, but I could be wrong. I know the numbers are really small, but here is hoping to more UI scalability and customization.
RE: Scoundrel/Operative DPS Compendium - Sol - 12-10-2011 08:11 PM
We are simply going in circles here. As I've stated several times this is the priority on 'patchwerks' style fights and you can alter your rotation accordingly for movement/add heavy fights, including running a slight deficit for those times. Regardless of what scenarios are out there, you don't design priorities with them all in mind. You design them for the perfect setting and then adjust them as needed. Otherwise, you're going to have too many variables that come into play and nothing will ever be concrete.
The rotation I put into place will ensure that while you are on your target, you will maintain the optimal levels of energy regeneration. How you want to proceed is completely in your hands from there. I'll add in a comment to this effect to avoid further confusion, however I won't be changing the rotation unless it's proven that the new one is better in those circumstances.
Adrenaline probe is only usefull every 1.5 mins, so including it for sustained dps is not appropriate. Save it for situations for burst or when you've made a mistake and dropped into lower energy regen levels. Sure you can't catch up globals, but you are not actually doing yourself any favours by using shiv just because it is available, especially if it drops you into sub-par regen. Regen is everything for us and as I've also stated a number of times, until I can map out a decent spread sheet for definitive answer, I'll err on the side of caution.
RE: Scoundrel/Operative DPS Compendium - suleria - 12-11-2011 12:51 AM
(12-10-2011 06:32 PM)Sol Wrote: Okay, I get what you're saying now. Firstly though you are never going to let Stim Boost drop off do you should clip it just before it ends. As such compare your scenario (1) against mine (2):
You're at 85 energy and Stim boost needs refreshing -
(1) Shiv down to 70, regain 8.5 over the GCD back to 78.5, stim boost then flurry up to 87, then flurry again back to 96.75 compared to:
(2) Flurry at 85 energy up to 94.75, shiv down to 79.75, regain 9.75 over the GCD up to 89.5, then Stim Boost and Flurry after up to 99.25?
Same amount of moves, however my priority nets you 2.5 more energy, and even if Stim Boost falls off, I'm still ahead by 0.25.
As stated, better to be safe on the safe side and simply Rifle shot whenever you're sub 90 energy.
Unless they have a special way to manage buff/debuff clipping that preserves the tick that is in progress when you clip the buff, you will definately want to wait until stim boost falls off to refresh it. Here is an example of the problem of clipping.
You stim boost at 0 seconds
- refreshing stim boost at 44 seconds you will get ticks at 42 and 47 seconds.
You miss the tick at 45 seconds as you clipped it. You also have to keep refrehing stim boost earlier and earlier, slowly pushing back GCDs for DPS.
-refreshing stim boost at 46 seconds you get ticks at 42, 45 and 49 which has both more frequent ticks than the case above, and does not lead to a loss of GCDs
Your computation on your shiv /stim boot examples are off:
for this computation you need to take into account sevral energy regeneration levels
80-100 /w stim boost = 9.75 energy/gcd
80-100 w/o stim boost = 7.5
60-80 /w stim boost = 8.25
60/80 w/o stim boost = 6
a) You are 85 energy and shiv down to 70 at second 0
You regenerate 6 energy and use stim boost + rifle shot at second 1.5
You regenerate 8.74 energy (67% of gcd spent in 60-80 range 33% in 80 - 100 range)* and rifle shot at 3 seconds
final energy = 84.74
b) You are 85 energy and rifle shot at second 0
You regenerate 7.5 energy and use shiv down to 77.5 at second 1.5
You regenerate 6.92 energy (41% of gcd spent in 60-80 range 59% in 80 - 100 range) and use stim boost + rifle shot at 3 seconds
final energy = 84.42
* To compute ratio for example a) i am using non stimmed energy regeneration rates to find the ratio and then multiplying by the stimmed energy regeneration rate. This is due to the fact that even though you have gotten your stim boost up earlier, you have not yet seen the first stim boost tick at this point, leaving you below 80 energy longer
(12-10-2011 06:32 PM)Sol Wrote: Acid blade has no CD and you'll be using it on CD in conjunction with backstab. I'm still interested in testing it out further though, as Backstab has a much higher coefficient of 1.94 compared to 0.31 for Acid blade. With higher gear levels this may prove enough of a difference to leave off Acid blade from Backstabs. As of now though, I would be including Acid Blade on every Backstab, until definitively proven otherwise.
Acid blades coeffficint is
((LvlRankDmgAmnt * 0.031 + SpellPower * 0.31) * 6)
Dot coefficients are listed as per tick with and then multiplied by the number of ticks. Which appears to be 6 in this case (apperrently a 1 sec tick time) This would give it a total coeffient of 1.8 for acid blade + 1.92 for backstab.
RE: Scoundrel/Operative DPS Compendium - Sol - 12-12-2011 12:13 PM
suleria Wrote:Refreshing stim boost at 44 seconds you will get ticks at 42 and 47 seconds.
You miss the tick at 45 seconds as you clipped it. You also have to keep refrehing stim boost earlier and earlier, slowly pushing back GCDs for DPS.
-refreshing stim boost at 46 seconds you get ticks at 42, 45 and 49 which has both more frequent ticks than the case above, and does not lead to a loss of GCDs
This is definitely correct and I had not taken this into account. Even so I’ll explain why I’ll stick to my original priority below.
suleria Wrote:a) You are 85 energy and shiv down to 70 at second 0
You regenerate 6 energy and use stim boost + rifle shot at second 1.5
You regenerate 8.74 energy (67% of gcd spent in 60-80 range 33% in 80 - 100 range)* and rifle shot at 3 seconds
final energy = 84.74
b) You are 85 energy and rifle shot at second 0
You regenerate 7.5 energy and use shiv down to 77.5 at second 1.5
You regenerate 6.92 energy (41% of gcd spent in 60-80 range 59% in 80 - 100 range) and use stim boost + rifle shot at 3 seconds
final energy = 84.42
By clipping Stim Boost, sure you may clip a tick, but you also never run the risk of leaving Stim Boost down for longer than anticipated, as you have greater room for error. While the maths here is in favour of your method, there is a discrepancy of 0.32 energy, which isn’t worth adding in the focus required to time your Stim Boost at precisely the 46th second. If you miss it, then your scenario take a turn for the worse and mine becomes better.
I’ll clip Stim Boost every time somewhere between the 35-45 second mark, as that gives me 10 seconds of room to slightly adjust my rotation and get off my other abilities that my also clash with Stim Boost. In your situation, the moment you don’t use Stim Boost at second 46, you’re causing more ‘waste’ than I am. Furthermore, what happens in your situation when you have several key abilities that are coming of CD at the 46 second mark? Because you don’t want to potentially waste 1 Stim Boost clip (0.34 energy), you’re going to delay their usage as Stim Boost has a greater priority. This creates the wasted GCD situation you described earlier that I was doing, however with far greater severity, as I’m only wasting 1 tick of Stim Boost, you could potentially pushing back 1-3 abilities several seconds, which will end up a greater dps loss.
By simply clipping Stim Boost between 35-45 seconds, around your other CD’s and energy levels and prioritising Rifle Shot when energy > 90, you are creating a more flexible system, with room to move. Yours requires absolute precision that the moment you get it incorrect (which is extremely easy to imo), you’re DPS will fall.
suleria Wrote:Dot coefficients are listed as per tick with and then multiplied by the number of ticks. Which appears to be 6 in this case (apperrently a 1 sec tick time) This would give it a total coeffient of 1.8 for acid blade + 1.92 for backstab.
Totally forget that x6 factor and this pretty much solves the argument for me. I’ll never use Backstab without Acid blade attached to it.
One thing I’d like to get another opinion on is the use of tactical advantage. We are always going to want 1 stack up for the 2% damage increase. My question:
1 - Is it better to run 1 stack, use Stim Boost/Laceration when required and refresh TA after with Shiv? or
2 - Use Shiv before Stim Boost/Laceration to have 2 stacks of TA prior to using them?
I’m inclined to believe number 2 as Laceration has no CD and therefore is directly linked to Shiv’s CD of 6 secs. Collateral Strike also has a 10 second ICD, which means so long as you’re using Laceration within 2 seconds after shiv (this allows a Rifle Shot for energy regen), you’ll be able to ensure your 50% proc chance happens every 2nd Shiv. Scenario 2 is easier to manage as well imo as you're only going to just have to mainly focus on Shiv's CD, rather than the smaller buff icons that can easily get lost amongst the others.
RE: Scoundrel/Operative DPS Compendium - Bnol - 12-12-2011 06:14 PM
(12-12-2011 12:13 PM)Sol Wrote: By clipping Stim Boost, sure you may clip a tick, but you also never run the risk of leaving Stim Boost down for longer than anticipated, as you have greater room for error. While the maths here is in favour of your method, there is a discrepancy of 0.32 energy, which isn’t worth adding in the focus required to time your Stim Boost at precisely the 46th second. If you miss it, then your scenario take a turn for the worse and mine becomes better.
I’ll clip Stim Boost every time somewhere between the 35-45 second mark, as that gives me 10 seconds of room to slightly adjust my rotation and get off my other abilities that my also clash with Stim Boost. In your situation, the moment you don’t use Stim Boost at second 46, you’re causing more ‘waste’ than I am. Furthermore, what happens in your situation when you have several key abilities that are coming of CD at the 46 second mark? Because you don’t want to potentially waste 1 Stim Boost clip (0.34 energy), you’re going to delay their usage as Stim Boost has a greater priority. This creates the wasted GCD situation you described earlier that I was doing, however with far greater severity, as I’m only wasting 1 tick of Stim Boost, you could potentially pushing back 1-3 abilities several seconds, which will end up a greater dps loss.
By simply clipping Stim Boost between 35-45 seconds, around your other CD’s and energy levels and prioritising Rifle Shot when energy > 90, you are creating a more flexible system, with room to move. Yours requires absolute precision that the moment you get it incorrect (which is extremely easy to imo), you’re DPS will fall.
Stim boost doesn't activate the GCD, so it will not cause any sort of CD clashing problem. Unless you are talking about getting the necessary TA, but Shiv is the highest priority ability, thus you are going to be working your energy around activating it every GCD anyways. You can also hold that TA if you see that Stim Boost is going to drop before the next Shiv CD. Clipping Stim Boost (especially 10 seconds out) will add up to missed Lacerations as you will be consuming TA unnecessarily. Certainly you do not want to let it stay off for a long time, but that shouldn't happen, especially if you are maintaining the 1 TA at all times (as you describe in your second example). If you have to you can sacrifice that 1 TA to keep Stim Boost up and then utilize Cloaking Screen and re-open with hidden strike to recover the TA.
RE: Scoundrel/Operative DPS Compendium - Sol - 12-12-2011 10:44 PM
Bnol Wrote:Stim boost doesn't activate the GCD, so it will not cause any sort of CD clashing problem. Unless you are talking about getting the necessary TA, but Shiv is the highest priority ability, thus you are going to be working your energy around activating it every GCD anyways. You can also hold that TA if you see that Stim Boost is going to drop before the next Shiv CD. Clipping Stim Boost (especially 10 seconds out) will add up to missed Lacerations as you will be consuming TA unnecessarily. Certainly you do not want to let it stay off for a long time, but that shouldn't happen, especially if you are maintaining the 1 TA at all times (as you describe in your second example). If you have to you can sacrifice that 1 TA to keep Stim Boost up and then utilize Cloaking Screen and re-open with hidden strike to recover the TA.
You're assuming that you'll be able to keep Shiv on CD , which I do not see happening whatsoever. I do agree however that significantly clipping Stim Boost is not worth it and as we aren't going to be able to keep Shiv on CD, it increases the importance of NOT doing so. However I still don't agree that very slightly clipping (final 3 secs) or slightly delaying (1.5 secs) a Stim Boost, in favour of keeping energy above 90 prior to using will be detrimental. The above example only showed a cost different of 0.32 energy. This simply isn't enough to warrant changing things around from simple, to more complex. I'd much prefer to Shiv/Stim at 48 seconds and lose a tick, rather than have to change my shift of thinking regarding the foundation of the entire rotation (Use specials in order whilst trying to stay above 90 energy) all for approximately 0.32 energy gain each application of Stim Boost.
We also won't have Shiv as our highest priority unless we need to refresh Stim Boost. Acid Blade-Backstab's damage outweighs a Laceration (Including Collateral strike), and also increases armour pen by 50%. Not to mention that Shiv/Lacerate costs 30 energy in total, double Acid Blade/Backstab. Collateral Strike also has an ICD of 10 secs and a 50% proc, further decreasing the value of Laceration. I know that Collateral Strike re-applies TA, but it still doesn't make it more valuable due to the relative cost. 45 energy for approx 3100 damage (Shiv + Lac x 2 + CS), which provides 69 damage per energy, compared to 15 energy for 2335 damage (AB/BS), which provides 155 damage per energy. And that is in the best case scenario. None of this takes into account the extra crit damage BS gets. Then Vital Shot is required for Collateral Strike, which is also very high at 20 energy. You simply cannot sustain usage of these abilities on every CD, it's impossible. I manually plugged your priority into a spread sheet, keeping everything on CD and your down to 60 energy in 15 seconds. At the same rate you're done in 30. Except it won't be the same rate, but worse. Hence the reason to 'flurry whenever you're below 90 energy' trumps all, as it's the safest option without gimping you significantly. If the difference of using Shiv/Stim before Flurry was greater than 0.32 (I'm thinking around 5-10 energy) I would have no hesitation to prioritise it over flurry. As it stands, I think the greater benefit is to keep the rotation as simple as possible (without any significant disadvantages), as you're already going to have your hands full watching enough buffs/CD's.
I'm not saying mathematically you guys aren't correct, you certainly are. I'm saying the cost/benefit ratio doesn't make it worthwhile imo. What I will do is add in this discussion into the energy section, as I think it's been extremely valuable to me personally and offered excellent new insights, and I'll let people make up their own minds. I don't think either of us are wrong. I think it's so close it will come down to personal preference, which I'm more than happy to state both cases for. I'll endeavour to update the guide before launch tomorrow.
P.s. Yes, I so totally forgot about Stim Boost being off the GCD and it completely invalidated my previous argument. My apologies.
RE: Scoundrel/Operative DPS Compendium - Bnol - 12-13-2011 04:33 PM
(12-12-2011 10:44 PM)Sol Wrote: You're assuming that you'll be able to keep Shiv on CD , which I do not see happening whatsoever. I do agree however that significantly clipping Stim Boost is not worth it and as we aren't going to be able to keep Shiv on CD, it increases the importance of NOT doing so. However I still don't agree that very slightly clipping (final 3 secs) or slightly delaying (1.5 secs) a Stim Boost, in favour of keeping energy above 90 prior to using will be detrimental. The above example only showed a cost different of 0.32 energy. This simply isn't enough to warrant changing things around from simple, to more complex. I'd much prefer to Shiv/Stim at 48 seconds and lose a tick, rather than have to change my shift of thinking regarding the foundation of the entire rotation (Use specials in order whilst trying to stay above 90 energy) all for approximately 0.32 energy gain each application of Stim Boost.
We also won't have Shiv as our highest priority unless we need to refresh Stim Boost. Acid Blade-Backstab's damage outweighs a Laceration (Including Collateral strike), and also increases armour pen by 50%. Not to mention that Shiv/Lacerate costs 30 energy in total, double Acid Blade/Backstab. Collateral Strike also has an ICD of 10 secs and a 50% proc, further decreasing the value of Laceration. I know that Collateral Strike re-applies TA, but it still doesn't make it more valuable due to the relative cost. 45 energy for approx 3100 damage (Shiv + Lac x 2 + CS), which provides 69 damage per energy, compared to 15 energy for 2335 damage (AB/BS), which provides 155 damage per energy. And that is in the best case scenario. None of this takes into account the extra crit damage BS gets. Then Vital Shot is required for Collateral Strike, which is also very high at 20 energy. You simply cannot sustain usage of these abilities on every CD, it's impossible. I manually plugged your priority into a spread sheet, keeping everything on CD and your down to 60 energy in 15 seconds. At the same rate you're done in 30. Except it won't be the same rate, but worse. Hence the reason to 'flurry whenever you're below 90 energy' trumps all, as it's the safest option without gimping you significantly. If the difference of using Shiv/Stim before Flurry was greater than 0.32 (I'm thinking around 5-10 energy) I would have no hesitation to prioritise it over flurry. As it stands, I think the greater benefit is to keep the rotation as simple as possible (without any significant disadvantages), as you're already going to have your hands full watching enough buffs/CD's.
I'm not saying mathematically you guys aren't correct, you certainly are. I'm saying the cost/benefit ratio doesn't make it worthwhile imo. What I will do is add in this discussion into the energy section, as I think it's been extremely valuable to me personally and offered excellent new insights, and I'll let people make up their own minds. I don't think either of us are wrong. I think it's so close it will come down to personal preference, which I'm more than happy to state both cases for. I'll endeavour to update the guide before launch tomorrow.
P.s. Yes, I so totally forgot about Stim Boost being off the GCD and it completely invalidated my previous argument. My apologies.
You are correct in the massive energy consumption. I was not thinking of the energy cost of Laceration. Which is a huge mistake on my part, I guess I was relating it in my mind to the free instant heal that Medics get (which would make concealment overpowered if it really was the case). We will be staying in the 2 TA range more because we can't spend them fast enough than any actual choice, especially with the free TA we can get from every other Laceration. Which means properly keeping Stim boost active is less of an issue.
Since the situation where we don't have a TA available is uncommon in the middle of the Patchwerk fight, now I am curious as to the difference you mentioned between letting Stim Boost fall or sacrificing the 1 TA (and the increased damage) that we have to refresh Stim Boost once it drops and then regaining the TA through Shiv later. Since the prior discussion was focused on not having TA available.
Our start-up period almost necessitates an Adrenaline Probe/Cool Head. Considering Hidden Strike (-9.5),Acid Blade/BS (-5.25), Shiv (-5.25) Corrosive Dart (-11.75) = -31.75 (ability cost minus the energy regained) or puts us at 68.25 energy just to get started with our armor pen, dot, and 2 TAs up. Obviously we can slow the application (although how we go about it might be different without using AP) and preserve energy and stay up, but at least in a Patchwerk style fight we will want to utilize it early/often to keep us at the higher energy levels (I did not use it in my calculations above) with the quickest application of debuffs.
Also, do we know whether DoTs are dynamic (change damage based on current statistics) or static (keep snapshot of stats/buffs at the time of cast)? I know we don't gain a lot of damage from Corrosive, and it gets into the is it worth it category, but I am curious as it could make things a bit more interesting.
I wonder if you could post that spreadsheet to play around with some things (or let me know that I am blind if you have posted it before). Although, now with early access upon us, not sure how much time I will actually be doing anything other than enjoying the game.