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Buff / Debuff Mechanics Questions - Sennin - 10-25-2011 05:16 AM
I posted something about buff/debuff mechanics in response to a Tanking Abilities priority thread, but it applies here and needs testing. Some in this forum may have some answers about this from their experiences in beta, or can test these things if they have the opportunity.
Some of it, will only make sense from the context of the previous thread in Sith Warrior/Jedi Knight forum HERE, but I think the example used in the response below may help illustrate what needs to be tested and how the various classes and their buffs/debuffs will interact in a PVE setting, and therefore may drive/dictate raid/group makeup.
Here is a copy and paste from the other thread:
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I think one of the biggest factors that will determine priorities of abilities is the buff/debuff mechanics. Some games have limiting factors in this area, and involve overwrite and or stacking mechanics.
Buff / Debuff Mechanics Questions:
1-Is there a total limit to how many buffs a player can have? (If the limit is easy to reach, you have to prioritize the best ones from the classes you have available, if not, then priority of buffs/debuff determined by later factors below)
2-Is there a total limit to how many debuffs a mob can have? (Same thing as above, use the best if limit is low, if not, then priority of buffs/debuff determined by later factors below)
3-Regardless of buff/debuff stacking is there a max magnitude that a buff/debuff can affect a player or boss/mob ? (IE. Mostly in the case of boss mobs, are there diminishing returns of armor penetration or accuracy debuffs beyond a certain point? etc)
4-Are buffs/debuffs limited to only one of each type? (accuracy buffs/debuffs, armor buffs/debuffs, one type of Dmg Absorption buff such as Bladestorm/Force Scream vs Static Barrier placed on the tank by a Sorcerer, etc)
5-Do these buff/debuffs stack or do they overwrite?
6-If they overwrite, how is overwrite determined? (Last buff of type stays and overwrites previous or does the highest value buff/debuff stay regardless of cast order?)
**Answers to these questions may determine priorities more than simple cooldowns.
Example w/ assumptions:
- Assuming that you can only have one of each type of buff/debuff, and that the highest level/magnitude buff/debuff overwrites or is not overwritten by lesser buffs/debuffs
-Lets assume that Static Barrier is the highest dmg absorption buff in the game (it may not be currently, or maybe it is, I know it is high damage currently, but things may change for all classes until launch) and that it will be cast by a Healer Tree SI (and only 14 seconds target deionization cooldown time where same target cannot receive Static Barrier again)
-Let's assume that Sunder Armor is the highest stacking armor debuff in the game (I am really not sure about this one anymore since things are changing fast and new builds all the time, old ability lists, etc, BUT if Sunder Armor isn't the highest debuff, then there would be no need to prioritize the armor reduction stacks of Guardian Slash given the Assumed mechanics in the example)
Result:
With the above mechanics, the Bladestorm/Force Scream damage absorption buff would not even apply itself if the tank had Static Barrier on it at the time, so therefore Bladestorm/Force Scream would not be prioritized over another ability such as Sunder Armor / Guardian Slash.
Instead, only during the deionization period or consumption of the buff, would we seek to use Bladestorm/Force scream to cover the Static Barrier loss.
Other potential factors in this example:
Also I am unsure as to how Guardian Slash damage works in conjunction with stacks of Sunder Armor. (Lets assume that you have the Improved Sundering Strike/Assault talent = an additional stack of Sunder Armor)
Guardian Slash
Focus: 4
Instant
Cooldown: 15 secs
Range: 4m
Strikes the target with a powerful blow, dealing 396-438 weapon damage and applying 3 stacks of armor reduction for 15 seconds. Targets affected by 5 stacks of your armor reduction suffer 498-548 weapon damage instead.
About 20% bonus damage when 5 stacks are up.
Improved Sundering Strike/Assault (abridged description)
Instant
Cooldown : 4.5 secs
Applies 2 stacks of Sunder armor (4% each), lasts 15 seconds
Q- When are the 3 stacks of armor reduction applied, before or after the damage of this attack is calculated?
More than likely, they are applied before the damage is calculated because the stacks of sunder armor from any source last for 15 seconds, which is the same as the cooldown of Guardian Slash. This would indicate that for rotation purposes, you will probably want to hit with Sunder Armor BEFORE using Guardian Slash.
A possibly better rotation than just using GS -> based on responses in this thread:
Sundering Strike/Assault (2 stacks) --> Guardian Slash (3 stack + 2= 5, bonus dmg triggered).
In Summary, until the buff/debuff mechanics are tested and known, it is premature to generate a tanking priority system.
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RE: Buff / Debuff Mechanics - Poksu - 11-02-2011 07:17 PM
On a more generic lvl, as the topic suggests, it would be cool to have a list of all the buffs/debuffs players have in the game. Similar to: http://raidcomp.mmo-champion.com/ ^^ I'm not expecting anyone to code such a fancy template
but just a written list of them, and who shares which buff/debuff with some other class.this would be nice to have up by the time of release, as it's important info for both pve and pvp.
RE: Buff / Debuff Mechanics Questions - Kaedis - 11-03-2011 10:07 AM
Problem is, Poksu, we still don't have definitive information on which ones stack and which ones don't. I'll see about at least putting together a comprehensive list, though.
RE: Buff / Debuff Mechanics Questions - Primalthirst - 11-28-2011 09:16 PM
I may be completely blind but I'm only seeing 1 raid buff for each class (not advanced class) and very minimal debuffs.
Sith Warrior: Unnatural Might - +5% Damage/Healing for 60 minutes
Sith Inquisitor: Mark of Power - +5% Strength, Aim, Willpower and Cunning, +10% Internal and Elemental Damage Reduction for 60 minutes
Bounty Hunter: Hunter's Boon - +5% Endurance for 60 minutes
Imperial Agent: Coordination - +5% Critical Hit chance for 60 minutes
I can't be bothered going through all the different debuffs but it seems Bioware has made them much simpler than in WoW /Rift or other previous MMOs. I'd be surprised if any of them didn't stack with each other since there doesn't seem to be any providing the same debuff from what I've seen.
That will be nice since managing who applies what buff has always been an unnecessary pain in the arse.
EDIT: Just realised this has already been solved via the OpComp tool, sorry.
RE: Buff / Debuff Mechanics Questions - Kaedis - 11-29-2011 06:16 AM
There are many from talents or AC specific abilities as well, but most of those are what I would consider 'active' buffs. In other words, buffs that last a short duration and have to be refreshed manually on a regular basis or have a cooldown much longer than their duration. For the most part, however, you're right. Those 4 buffs, plus the damage reduction debuff that 2 out of the 3 tanks have, are the only really required buffs.
RE: Buff / Debuff Mechanics Questions - Pantelijus - 11-30-2011 01:29 AM
Debuffs from mobs to players stack , for example armor debuff which has a limit of 5 stacks(mechanic similar to Sundering Assault debuff) stacks with same armor debuff from another mob.
Mob 1 applies 5x stacks of armor debuff on me .
Mob 2 applies 3x stacks of armor debuff on me .
I have 12% armor reduction before Mob 1 , 9.6% armor reduction after Mob 1 , 8.448% armor reduction after Mob 2 .
Problem is if u charge into large group of same mobs and they live long enough to apply armor debuff on you at same time to max stack u are gona get destroyed by them in seconds.
I have seen DoTs of same kind from different mobs stacking aswell but they didnt had the same impact as armor stacking debuffs or in some cases hostile damage reduction debuffs such as Combust and Wither
RE: Buff / Debuff Mechanics Questions - Kaedis - 11-30-2011 09:48 AM
Quote:I have 12% armor reduction before Mob 1 , 9.6% armor reduction after Mob 1 , 8.448% armor reduction after Mob 2 .If I recall correctly, the armor debuffs decrease your armor, not your damage reduction from armor. In the former case, they scale very non-linearly.
Also, there's no guarantee that player debuffs stack similarly. DoTs stacking is a given, however.
RE: Buff / Debuff Mechanics Questions - Pantelijus - 12-01-2011 12:30 AM
(11-30-2011 09:48 AM)Kore Wrote:Quote:I have 12% armor reduction before Mob 1 , 9.6% armor reduction after Mob 1 , 8.448% armor reduction after Mob 2 .If I recall correctly, the armor debuffs decrease your armor, not your damage reduction from armor. In the former case, they scale very non-linearly.
Also, there's no guarantee that player debuffs stack similarly. DoTs stacking is a given, however.
My mistake on that one i might have mixed the numbers , anyone who played Jugg and grouped with other Juggs could shed some light on player debuff stacking.
RE: Buff / Debuff Mechanics Questions - Grey - 12-01-2011 03:19 AM
Just to try and add something useful, I did flashpoints with a few friends this weekend and saw that my armor debuff from Sundering Assault and the BH Merc armor debuff were up on the bosses at the same time. Unfortunately I wasn't able to see if the same exact debuff stacked.
RE: Buff / Debuff Mechanics Questions - Kaedis - 12-01-2011 05:28 AM
It would also be worth checking if the benefit actually stacks, but that will take some very precise testing.