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+--- Thread: Carnage | Discipline Discussion (/thread-181.html)
RE: Carnage discipline discussion - Ezmode - 12-10-2011 06:18 AM
We are still working out the stat weights, but all special attacks (ie anything except basic rage gainer) have 100% accuracy, so the your list would look more like:
Accuracy to 110% > Power > Critical > Surge
Also, with DoTs, parried attacks mean no DPS. Regardless of the tree, I think Accuracy should have a high priority. The problem is that Surge is throwing off all our weight stats, and any slight increase to either Power, Critical or Surge, changes the values too much to get a proper reading.
RE: Carnage discipline discussion - Joejr82 - 12-10-2011 06:42 AM
(12-10-2011 06:18 AM)Ezmode Wrote: We are still working out the stat weights, but all special attacks (ie anything except basic rage gainer) have 100% accuracy, so the your list would look more like:
Accuracy to 110% > Power > Critical > Surge
Also, with DoTs, parried attacks mean no DPS. Regardless of the tree, I think Accuracy should have a high priority. The problem is that Surge is throwing off all our weight stats, and any slight increase to either Power, Critical or Surge, changes the values too much to get a proper reading.
Edited OP for the 110% change.
Accuracy over 110% should still be higher than critical and surge for Carnage, because it will boost all attacks that connect while critical only increases a chance for more damage and surge only increases the damage of that chance attack.
Blade Storm will all ways have a 100% critical chance once combat has begun and we are doing our rotation/priority. Which should De-value critical as it can no longer affect one of our attacks.
I agree that surge will all ways be the stat that is hard to math out because of the way it works, but it will be the weakest stat for us.
RE: Carnage discipline discussion - Ezmode - 12-10-2011 06:51 AM
Offhands have 33% reduced chance to hit, so at 110% OH accuracy will be 77%.
RE: Carnage discipline discussion - LagunaD - 12-11-2011 01:21 AM
(12-10-2011 06:51 AM)Ezmode Wrote: Offhands have 33% reduced chance to hit, so at 110% OH accuracy will be 77%.
I believe the penalty is 30%, not 33%.
I made a spreadsheet to better understand stat priorities, using my Level 50 Marauder from the final beta build.
The spreadsheet includes all diminishing returns and talent effects, as well as the combat table (miss/avoid/critical).
Using the coefficients for each ability, my Marauder's stats and gear, and an estimate of enemy defense and mitigation, I calculate the expected damage for every ability (tooltip damage modified by everything else).
That's the easy part.
I also calculate the *derivative* of the expected damage for every ability, with respect to all the stats that I can change, in closed form. If you're comfortable with calculus, this isn't all that difficult. Someday I'll write up the fomulas, since it isn't class specific apart from the ability parameters which you can just plug in.
Finally, I assign a weight (0 in some cases) to each ability reflecting roughly the frequency that I expect to use it. With that I can estimate the total average damage and DPS over a weighted mixture of abilities, and derivative of that with respect to each stat. Those derivatives indicate stat weights.
During the actual beta build, I did the same thing, but only for my basic attack, and tried to pick my stats to maximize its damage. For the basic attack, maximum damage favored a somewhat balanced mix of stats, Accuracy-to-Cap and Power favored, with Surge and Critical Rating getting better as my gear improved.
The weights for something more like a full rotation came out a bit differently, which is mainly because for most non-basic abilities, the damage bonus is weighted more heavily (and therefore Power gets better).
I assumed that the target has 10% Defense and 10% Force Resistance. I am not actually sure whether most mobs have Force Resist (in the last build I kept my Accuracy very close to cap). In prior builds, playing as a Shadow, I did see occasional resists on Project. This would be good to determine conclusively, because if the target has *no* Force resist, my spreadsheet say Accuracy Rating isn't worth capping.
This is kind of understandable - with passive bonuses, I have 106% Force Accuracy and 106% Main-hand Accuracy even with no points in Accuracy Rating. If the target has no Force resist, then Accuracy is adding nothing to any of my Force attacks, which contribute a significant fraction of my damage, and this cuts the worth of Accuracy Rating roughly in half. It still increases my DPS, of course, just not as much as other stats.
So, with those assumptions, my DPS estimator is maximized by capping Accuracy, then adding Power and Surge Rating in about a 3.5:1 ratio. Critical Rating is disfavored, which makes sense since I have assumed that Force Scream (our "nuke") is only used with the auto-crit buff. In that case, Critical Rating adds nothing to it (but it likes Surge a lot).
Each point of Surge increases the value of Critical Rating, so if this stat priority were used up to higher (e.g. raid) gear levels, eventually Critical Rating might become competitive with the others. But with gear I had (Ilum daily + craftable mods) the numbers suggest that Critical Rating should be avoided.
With that said, the difference between optimized stats and the more balanced distribution I actually had at the end of beta is only about 2%. So I think as long as you don't skimp on Power, you can't gimp yourself very badly.
RE: Carnage discipline discussion - pogues - 12-11-2011 07:23 AM
Is ravage a worthwhile ability? I was looking at specs and overwhelm is not a great PvE talent and the more I looked at Ravage I can't see why we would want to use it in a rotation as it takes 3 seconds channeled (2 gcd). I would think it would be a dps lost over two other abilities being used in those two gcds.
Is there something I am not seeing?
RE: Carnage discipline discussion - LagunaD - 12-11-2011 10:50 AM
(12-11-2011 07:23 AM)pogues Wrote: Is ravage a worthwhile ability? I was looking at specs and overwhelm is not a great PvE talent and the more I looked at Ravage I can't see why we would want to use it in a rotation as it takes 3 seconds channeled (2 gcd). I would think it would be a dps lost over two other abilities being used in those two gcds.
Is there something I am not seeing?
Ravage costs no Rage, and (at least on my Level 50 Marauder from the last beta build) does slightly more damage than two Massacres (including the auto-proc Ataru strikes). I always tried to keep it on cooldown. The damage is better than anything you can spam (i.e. Massacre) and doing damage without spending Rage means using low-damage rage-builders less frequently.
I don't like Overwhelm either for PvE (it looks potentially better for PvP, but I never PvPed on my Marauder).
RE: Carnage discipline discussion - Freehugs - 12-11-2011 11:22 AM
(12-11-2011 01:21 AM)LagunaD Wrote: I believe the penalty is 30%, not 33%
It's 30% damage, -33% accuracy.
RE: Carnage discipline discussion - LagunaD - 12-11-2011 07:14 PM
(12-11-2011 11:22 AM)Freehugs Wrote:(12-11-2011 01:21 AM)LagunaD Wrote: I believe the penalty is 30%, not 33%
It's 30% damage, -33% accuracy.
As I said, I believe the off-hand accuracy penalty is -30%.
Unless I wrote down the stats from my Marauder incorrectly, and then never noticed the mistake in the hundreds of times I looked at them after.
And it is 40% damage (not 30%), +12% for each rank of Dual-Wield Mastery.
RE: Carnage discipline discussion - Freehugs - 12-12-2011 09:45 AM
(12-11-2011 07:14 PM)LagunaD Wrote: As I said, I believe the off-hand accuracy penalty is -30%.
Unless I wrote down the stats from my Marauder incorrectly, and then never noticed the mistake in the hundreds of times I looked at them after.
Apparently that's exactly what you did.
![[Image: accuracy.jpg]](http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/202/accuracy.jpg/)
RE: Carnage discipline discussion - jrod2173 - 12-12-2011 11:15 AM
Ide like to get in on the Convo about some of your builds, but for some reason I cannot view the builds From torhead.com. Any suggestions?