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RE: Carnage discipline discussion - Tumri - 02-08-2012 06:28 AM
(02-07-2012 10:54 PM)LagunaD Wrote:(02-07-2012 01:52 PM)Mertox Wrote:(02-07-2012 01:43 PM)LagunaD Wrote: On an entirely different subject, what are peoples' thoughts about using Force Choke/Force Stasis for DPS in a Carnage/Combat rotation?
Terrible considering you're trying to shy away from Assault entirely.
Did you read past the first sentence of my post? The point is that it can be a DPS increase, compared to using Assault.
It does less damage per GCD compared to assault and also provides less rage. It's a bad idea.
RE: Carnage discipline discussion - Mertox - 02-08-2012 06:29 AM
(02-07-2012 10:54 PM)LagunaD Wrote:(02-07-2012 01:52 PM)Mertox Wrote:(02-07-2012 01:43 PM)LagunaD Wrote: On an entirely different subject, what are peoples' thoughts about using Force Choke/Force Stasis for DPS in a Carnage/Combat rotation?
Terrible considering you're trying to shy away from Assault entirely.
Did you read past the first sentence of my post? The point is that it can be a DPS increase, compared to using Assault.
No, I didn't need to.
RE: Carnage discipline discussion - LagunaD - 02-08-2012 11:21 AM
(02-08-2012 06:28 AM)Tumri Wrote: It does less damage per GCD compared to assault and also provides less rage. It's a bad idea.
(02-08-2012 06:29 AM)Mertox Wrote:(02-07-2012 10:54 PM)LagunaD Wrote: Did you read past the first sentence of my post? The point is that it can be a DPS increase, compared to using Assault.
No, I didn't need to.
Well, the quality of discussion here seems to have taken a decided turn for the worse.
I showed above, using simple math, that using Force Choke instead of Assault (when Berserk is not active) results in a DPS increase.
And it is not true that "it does less damage per GCD than Assault," even if you are Accuracy-capped, which is a bad idea for other reasons. In fact, Force Choke does more damage per GCD than Assault by a substantial margin, which more than makes up for generating less rage per GCD than Assault, as I showed.
The correct way to compare abilities which generate different amounts of rage is to add their damage to that of the filler attacks (Massacres) that they pay for, and then calculate the total DPS of the rage-neutal builder+spender combination.
RE: Carnage discipline discussion - Mertox - 02-08-2012 11:28 AM
How did the quality diminish? You asked a question, I gave an answer.
RE: Carnage discipline discussion - Tumri - 02-09-2012 12:29 AM
Force Choke consumes 2 GCDs and does ~1600 DMG while giving 3 rage.
Assault consumes 1 GCD and does ~1200 DMG while giving 2 rage.
2xAssault consumes 2 GCDs and does ~2400 DMG while giving 4 rage.
Factoring in 98%(108 Special) accuracy you still get 2160 DMG and 4 rage vs 1600 DMG and 3 rage.
There is no way that Force Choke is a DPS increase. You likely did it wrong on your spreadsheet.
RE: Carnage discipline discussion - LagunaD - 02-09-2012 02:42 AM
(02-09-2012 12:29 AM)Tumri Wrote: Force Choke consumes 2 GCDs and does ~1600 DMG while giving 3 rage.
Assault consumes 1 GCD and does ~1200 DMG while giving 2 rage.
2xAssault consumes 2 GCDs and does ~2400 DMG while giving 4 rage.
Factoring in 98%(108 Special) accuracy you still get 2160 DMG and 4 rage vs 1600 DMG and 3 rage.
There is no way that Force Choke is a DPS increase. You likely did it wrong on your spreadsheet.
Could you explain how you determined these values and/or post the stats they are based on?
Force Choke's tooltip damage is already greater than 1600 on my Level 46 Marauder, with no buffs and only Rank 2 of the ability trainable (Level 50 is Rank 4).
You do realize that Force Choke ticks four (not three) times for the value listed in the tooltip, right?
From the client files, using your value of Accuracy
Assault does
(1.01*MH + 0.99*MeleeBonus) * (98% Accuracy - 8% Defense) + 0.66*OH * (65% Accuracy - 8% Defense)
Assault = 0.909*MH + 0.792*MBonus + 0.3762*OH
Assuming MH and OH have the same rating/tooltip damage,
Assault = 1.2852*MH + 0.792*MBonus (non-crit)
There is a relatively close relationship between MBonus and FBonus. With SI + SW buffs:
MBonus = 1.05*(1.05*0.2*Str + 0.23*Power) = 0.2205*Str + 0.2415*Power
FBonus = 1.05*(1.05*0.2*(Str+Will) + 0.23*(Power+ForcePower)) = 0.2205*(Str+Will) + 0.2415*(Power+ForcePower)
So MBonus = FBonus - 0.2205*Will - 0.2415*ForcePower
With Datacrons, Will is about 120, and with Rakata sabers, ForcePower = 1224, so:
MBonus = FBonus - 26.46 - 295.596 = FBonus - 322.1
Also with Rakata sabers, MH = OH = 382.5, so
Assault = 1.2852*(382.5) + 0.792*(FBonus - 322.1) = 236.5 + 0.792*FBonus (non-crit)
With criticals, this will become:
Assault = (236.5 + 0.792*FBonus) * (1 + MCritChance*CritBonus)
The Melee and Force Critical chances are also closely related. Assuming approximately 1% bonus to Force critical chance from Willpower:
MCritChance = (FCritChance - 0.07)
The Crit bonus (from Surge) is the same for both Assault and Force Choke; let's assume it's 80% total.
Assault = (236.5 + 0.792*FBonus) * (1 + (FCritChance-0.07)*0.8)
Assault = (236.5 + 0.792*FBonus) * (0.944 + 0.8*FCritChance) (crits included)
Assault = 223.3 + 0.7476*FBonus + 189.2*FCritChance + 0.6336*FBonus*FCritChance (crits included)
In the best case, where the Massacre buff to Ataru chance is active, the chance for Ataru NOT to proc from an Assault is:
(0.43+0.57*0.5)*(0.1+0.9*0.5)^3 = 11.9%
So the Ataru proc chance per Assault is 88.1% with the Massacre buff.
The damage of Ataru at Level 50 is:
1.3 * (0.034*1610 + 0.343*FBonus) = 71.162 + 0.4459*FBonus (non-crit)
The expected Ataru damage from an Assault is then:
Ataru = (71.2 + 0.4458*FBonus)*0.881 = 62.7 + 0.3927*FBonus (non-crit)
With crits included, it will be
Ataru = (62.7 + 0.3927*FBonus) * (1 + FCritChance*(0.8 + 0.3)), or
Ataru = 62.7 + 0.3927*FBonus + 69.0*FCritChance + 0.432*FBonus*FCritChance
So the total expected damage of Assault, including Accuracy, Crits and Ataru is:
Assault + Ataru = (223.3 + 62.7) + (0.7476 + 0.3927)*FBonus + (189.2+69.0)*FCritChance + (0.6336 + 0.432)*FCritChance*FBonus
Assault + Ataru = 286 + 1.1403*FBonus + 258.2*FCritChance + 1.0656*FBonus*FCritChance
Force Choke is somewhat easier to calculate. It ticks 4 times for
Choke (1 tick) = 0.068*1610 + 0.68*FBonus = 109.5 + 0.68*FBonus
So the average for 1 GCD is two ticks:
Choke (2 ticks) = 219.0 + 1.36*FBonus (1 GCD, non-crit)
There is no avoidance, and no Ataru.
With Criticals:
Choke (2 ticks) = (219 + 1.36*FBonus)*(1 + FCritChance*0.8)
Choke (2 ticks) = 219 + 1.36*FBonus + 175.2*FCritChance + 1.088*FCritChance*FBonus
So the damage difference between Assault and half a Force Choke is:
Assault - Choke(2 ticks) = (286 - 219) + (1.1403-1.36)*FBonus + (258.2-175.2)*FCritChance + (1.0656 - 1.088)*FBonus*FCritChance
Assault - Choke(2 ticks) = 67 - 0.2197*FBonus + 83*FCritChance - 0.0224*FBonus*FCritChance
Assault - Choke(2 ticks) = (67 + 83*FCritChance) - FBonus*(0.2197 + 0.0224*FCritChance)
For a very low 25% FCritChance:
Assault - Choke (2 ticks) = 87.75 - 0.2253*FBonus,
which is greater than 0 (i.e. Assault wins) only if FBonus < 389.
Any Level 50 Marauder with level appropriate gear (and especially with the Rakata sabers we've assumed) will have FBonus > 389, so Force Choke wins for 25% FCritChance.
For a very high 40% FCritChance, which is likely far from optimal:
Assault - Choke(2 ticks) = 100.2 - 0.2287*FBonus,
which is greater than 0 (i.e. Assault wins) only if FBonus < 438.
Any Level 50 Marauder with the Rakata sabers we've assumed in calculating Assault's damage will have at least 1000 Strength, 100 Willpower and 1224 Force Power, so their Force Damage bonus with buffs will be at least 538 (and considerably higher, if they also have Power on their gear).
Therefore, in any plausible gearing scenario, Assault never does more damage per GCD than Force Choke.
RE: Carnage discipline discussion - Tumri - 02-10-2012 04:39 AM
(02-09-2012 02:42 AM)LagunaD Wrote: You do realize that Force Choke ticks four (not three) times for the value listed in the tooltip, right?
I wasn't aware that Force Choke did more than 3 times listed value. I assumed that since the tooltip said X damage every second for three seconds it would be 3 times the listed value despite the fourth tick. That would likely bring them closer together in value. It also appears my tooltip was bugged for some reason(thinking it had something to do with switching out mods the other day since that bugs out my character stats on the equipment menu). My Assault was shown with a range of ~1100-1300 with my Force Choke shown as ~535 DPS for 3 seconds but when I logged in today in the exact same gear and buffs it's showing 988-1240 on Assault and 658 DPS for 3 seconds on Choke.
With the correct tooltips it's 2632 + 3 rage from Choke vs 2228(-10% is 2005) + 4 rage from Assault with an 88.1% chance to proc an Ataru Strikes worth 395 damage each. This averages out to 348 damage extra from Ataru per attack.
Choke: 2632 DMG + 3 Rage
Assault(with Massacre/Ataru active): 2701 + 4 Rage.
One thing that's puzzling me is how you got 88.1% chance to proc an Ataru strike. I assumed that an assault had a 50% chance(20% from Ataru, 30% from Massacre) and at that point you'd be right and Choke would be more damage than 2x Assault but with 1 less rage(Which can be argued is worth 1/4th the damage difference between Massacre and Assault).
Another thing I'm not taking into account here is the incredible amount of unavoidable accuracy from Ataru Form and the 3% Accuracy talent(No alternative since Erupting Fury is terrible). This would push Assault's damage higher since it would have less than the 10% chance to miss I'm using here.
RE: Carnage discipline discussion - Monaerch - 02-10-2012 06:39 AM
(02-10-2012 04:39 AM)Tumri Wrote: One thing that's puzzling me is how you got 88.1% chance to proc an Ataru strike. I assumed that an assault had a 50% chance(20% from Ataru, 30% from Massacre) and at that point you'd be right and Choke would be more damage than 2x Assault but with 1 less rage(Which can be argued is worth 1/4th the damage difference between Massacre and Assault).
I believe it's because Assault and Battering Assault each perform 3 "attacks", while doing a lump sum of damage. So essentially 3 chances at causing the 50% proc. Or is it 4? Laguna's math is set up as though the main hand has 3 hits and the offhand has one, whereas I thought it was 2 mainhand 1 offhand. If it IS 2 main 1 off then its a 21.6% chance that ataru will be unsuccessful, so a 78.4% chance to proc. Also was that done assuming 0 accuracy from gear?
RE: Carnage discipline discussion - LagunaD - 02-10-2012 12:51 PM
(02-10-2012 04:39 AM)Tumri Wrote: With the correct tooltips it's 2632 + 3 rage from Choke vs 2228(-10% is 2005) + 4 rage from Assault with an 88.1% chance to proc an Ataru Strikes worth 395 damage each. This averages out to 348 damage extra from Ataru per attack.
Choke: 2632 DMG + 3 Rage
Assault(with Massacre/Ataru active): 2701 + 4 Rage.
This is still a bit of an overestimate for Assault, though, because the hit chance of the off-hand attack (whose damage is included in the tooltip) is less than 90%.
It is also an overestimate since the Massacre buff won't be up 100% of the time (although I also assumed it was in my numbers).
Choke also has a ~7% higher critical chance than Assault (~+5.6% relative expected damage), although Ataru gets the same critical chance and 30% multiplier buff (~+8% or so on Ataru, or +2-3% on the combo). So there's another few percent advantage to Force Choke from criticals.
(02-10-2012 04:39 AM)Tumri Wrote: One thing that's puzzling me is how you got 88.1% chance to proc an Ataru strike.
Ataru has a 20-50% chance to proc per successful melee attack. Assault is 3 main-hand swings and 1 off-hand swing. I used the appropriate accuracy values and best-case proc chance to calculate the probability of it proc'ing on an Assault.
If the Massacre buff is not up, the Ataru proc chance per Assault (3+1 swings) drops to about 50%.
(02-10-2012 04:39 AM)Tumri Wrote: Another thing I'm not taking into account here is the incredible amount of unavoidable accuracy from Ataru Form and the 3% Accuracy talent(No alternative since Erupting Fury is terrible). This would push Assault's damage higher since it would have less than the 10% chance to miss I'm using here.
The accuracy buff from Ataru form was included in my calculation. You said you had 98% Accuracy for MH standard attacks, which is a reasonable, if less than optimal, value if the defender has 8% avoidance (then you are "Accuracy capped" for special attacks). We get 96% Accuracy for main-hand Assault swings (106% for MH special attacks) without any bonus from gear (3% from Ataru, and 3% from Narrowed Hatred). Since additional Accuracy from Accuracy Rating doesn't increase the expected damage of Force Scream, and only mildly increases the rate (but not damage per proc) of Ataru (which together are a significant fraction of our damage), it tends to be less effective at increasing overall DPS than other stats.
(02-10-2012 06:39 AM)Monaerch Wrote: I believe it's because Assault and Battering Assault each perform 3 "attacks", while doing a lump sum of damage. So essentially 3 chances at causing the 50% proc. Or is it 4? Laguna's math is set up as though the main hand has 3 hits and the offhand has one, whereas I thought it was 2 mainhand 1 offhand. If it IS 2 main 1 off then its a 21.6% chance that ataru will be unsuccessful, so a 78.4% chance to proc. Also was that done assuming 0 accuracy from gear?
Assault is 3 MH swings and 1 OH.
I am pretty sure that the basic attack for any class is always 3 MH attacks for (very nearly) 1/3 of (Weapon + Bonus), plus an off-hand swing (with appropriate damage penalty and no bonus damage) if dual wielding. In any case, I checked the client files directly for Marauders.
The numbers I used assume +2% Accuracy from gear, which is the most you would ever want if boss avoidance is 8%.
RE: Carnage discipline discussion - stovepipe - 02-15-2012 02:59 AM
(02-10-2012 12:51 PM)LagunaD Wrote:(02-10-2012 04:39 AM)Tumri Wrote: With the correct tooltips it's 2632 + 3 rage from Choke vs 2228(-10% is 2005) + 4 rage from Assault with an 88.1% chance to proc an Ataru Strikes worth 395 damage each. This averages out to 348 damage extra from Ataru per attack.
Choke: 2632 DMG + 3 Rage
Assault(with Massacre/Ataru active): 2701 + 4 Rage.
This is still a bit of an overestimate for Assault, though, because the hit chance of the off-hand attack (whose damage is included in the tooltip) is less than 90%.
It is also an overestimate since the Massacre buff won't be up 100% of the time (although I also assumed it was in my numbers).
Choke also has a ~7% higher critical chance than Assault (~+5.6% relative expected damage), although Ataru gets the same critical chance and 30% multiplier buff (~+8% or so on Ataru, or +2-3% on the combo). So there's another few percent advantage to Force Choke from criticals.
(02-10-2012 04:39 AM)Tumri Wrote: One thing that's puzzling me is how you got 88.1% chance to proc an Ataru strike.
Ataru has a 20-50% chance to proc per successful melee attack. Assault is 3 main-hand swings and 1 off-hand swing. I used the appropriate accuracy values and best-case proc chance to calculate the probability of it proc'ing on an Assault.
If the Massacre buff is not up, the Ataru proc chance per Assault (3+1 swings) drops to about 50%.
(02-10-2012 04:39 AM)Tumri Wrote: Another thing I'm not taking into account here is the incredible amount of unavoidable accuracy from Ataru Form and the 3% Accuracy talent(No alternative since Erupting Fury is terrible). This would push Assault's damage higher since it would have less than the 10% chance to miss I'm using here.
The accuracy buff from Ataru form was included in my calculation. You said you had 98% Accuracy for MH standard attacks, which is a reasonable, if less than optimal, value if the defender has 8% avoidance (then you are "Accuracy capped" for special attacks). We get 96% Accuracy for main-hand Assault swings (106% for MH special attacks) without any bonus from gear (3% from Ataru, and 3% from Narrowed Hatred). Since additional Accuracy from Accuracy Rating doesn't increase the expected damage of Force Scream, and only mildly increases the rate (but not damage per proc) of Ataru (which together are a significant fraction of our damage), it tends to be less effective at increasing overall DPS than other stats.
(02-10-2012 06:39 AM)Monaerch Wrote: I believe it's because Assault and Battering Assault each perform 3 "attacks", while doing a lump sum of damage. So essentially 3 chances at causing the 50% proc. Or is it 4? Laguna's math is set up as though the main hand has 3 hits and the offhand has one, whereas I thought it was 2 mainhand 1 offhand. If it IS 2 main 1 off then its a 21.6% chance that ataru will be unsuccessful, so a 78.4% chance to proc. Also was that done assuming 0 accuracy from gear?
Assault is 3 MH swings and 1 OH.
I am pretty sure that the basic attack for any class is always 3 MH attacks for (very nearly) 1/3 of (Weapon + Bonus), plus an off-hand swing (with appropriate damage penalty and no bonus damage) if dual wielding. In any case, I checked the client files directly for Marauders.
The numbers I used assume +2% Accuracy from gear, which is the most you would ever want if boss avoidance is 8%.
I tend to agree.
So after looking at a spread sheet of yours in a previous post, I tried to simplify things and came up with the below build. I explain what rotation I use also. Am I doing it wrong, or am I on the right track? Mind you I'm more of a PVP person than PVE, but do both.
Sith Marauder/Carnage 2/35/4
Annihilation: 2 points
-2 in Enraged Slash
Carnage: 35 points
-Maxed all points in everything except, No Displacement and No Erupting Fury.
*I put 2 in Unbound because of the 100% to break free of CC when using Camouflage for PVP
Rage: 4 points
-2 in Ravager
-2 in Stagger
My rotation:
In Ataru Form:
[Macro 1] - Champion Relic / Cloak of Pain / Force Charge
[Macro 2] - Assault / Battering Assault / Massacre / Gore / Ravage / Force Scream
*when Berserk is up I'll use Gore if I can and then Berserk / Massacre (6 times)
*If Berserk is up and I have more than one person around me I use
[Macro 3] - Shii-Cho Form / Saber Ward / Berserk / Vicious Slash (spam, while in Shii-Cho Form and Berserking, it costs no rage and hits two targets)
Situational Moves that are on my bars:
- Crippling Slash
- Unleash
- Disruption
- Obfuscate
- BloodThrist
- Intimidating Roar
- Force Choke
- Predation
- Pommel Strike - Wish I could work this into my rotation. Doesn't seem to work much in PVP but I've seen 4,365 crits come from this baby.
- Vicious Throw
- Deadly Throw
- Smash
- Savage Kick
- Undying Rage
- Force Camouflage
- Disable Droid
- Heroic Moment
Your thoughts?