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+--- Thread: [Patch 1.0-1.1 ARCHIVE] Mercenary | Commando DPS Compendium (/thread-1003.html)
RE: Arsenal Mercenary | Gunnery Commando DPS Compendium - shinyhalo - 12-28-2011 12:44 PM
I'm not experienced enough to make an epic comment on most of this, but the tooltip for Terminal Velocity says it can only proc once every 3 seconds max.
(12-28-2011 03:28 AM)Poksu Wrote:(12-28-2011 01:15 AM)Xyrm Wrote: And you can see, the end difference is one heat, and you had a chance for a more powerful unload, but what's important is to consider the position we are now in. Since my last Unload, I've done 3 Tracer Missiles, while you only did one. Which means in the next few seconds, I'm more likely primed for a Barrage Unload.
how have I only done 1 tracer if i kick off with 2 before my first unload? and as you kinda noted, you just cant ignore crits in your napkin math.
with your examples, were doing the same amount of abilities, while i have the possibility of a Barrage proc. what your math doesnt show, is the chance for me to vent much more heat while unloading. unload can truly be heat venting ability, not "just a free cast". 3x crits which all vent 8 heat = 16 - 3 x 8 = -8. so if you start with unload, you are possibly wasting 10 or so heat, with the normal regen happening at the same time. with your uncritted examples I'd go over the safe treshold, but in the real world some of those hits would be crits, and i wouldnt go over. sure it's a gamble, but doing the math with no crits is just silly.
the absolutely only reason to start with unload is threat. so far I havent had any trouble with random pug tanks, with me starting off with trinketed tracers. I've almost forgot I have flares.
RE: Arsenal Mercenary | Gunnery Commando DPS Compendium - Bloodskila - 12-28-2011 08:39 PM
(12-28-2011 12:44 PM)shinyhalo Wrote: I'm not experienced enough to make an epic comment on most of this, but the tooltip for Terminal Velocity says it can only proc once every 3 seconds max.
Don't worry, that's a very valid comment.
As long as the community helps each other, the site will prosper too.
RE: Arsenal Mercenary | Gunnery Commando DPS Compendium - Poksu - 12-28-2011 11:47 PM
well doh -_-
but still from my own experiences, double tracer and unload, in that order, keeps you within the safe zone. starting off with unload simply means you start your real "rotation" later. sure it's very heat effective, but its not good dps.
RE: Arsenal Mercenary | Gunnery Commando DPS Compendium - Tato23 - 12-29-2011 05:04 PM
So does our Armor Debuff not stack with a Jugg/Guard armor debuff? Or does it? And does our armor debuff stack with our armor pierce cell?
RE: Arsenal Mercenary | Gunnery Commando DPS Compendium - Tato23 - 12-29-2011 07:01 PM
Also wanted to let you guys know, the pve set bonus, the 2pc is nice.
15% extra crit chance for High impact bolt and grav round/tracer missile.
That alone with raid buffs pushes me up to 50% chance to crit with those 2. I assume this will factor into our ammo/heat regen big time.
Can't remember the 4pc off the top of my head, I'll post tomorrow with it.[/size]
RE: Arsenal Mercenary | Gunnery Commando DPS Compendium - Xyrm - 12-30-2011 01:33 AM
(12-28-2011 11:47 PM)Poksu Wrote: but still from my own experiences, double tracer and unload, in that order, keeps you within the safe zone. starting off with unload simply means you start your real "rotation" later. sure it's very heat effective, but its not good dps.
After giving your method a try, it DOES feel better, with one caveat. I still don't think it's a good idea to, by default, always use Unload after two TMs to start, because you still aren't necessarily fixing the problem of no Barrage. Like I said, in a Operation scenario (or FPs with other good players) the armor debuff you get with Heat Signature will already be applied, whether by a sniper instantly, or by a tank very quickly. I feel once you start the rotation, ONLY use Unload with Barrage.
Please don't let my giant walls of text come off as an attack on your playstyle, we are all learning here and I was just trying to think it through. Taking into account that Terminal Velocity also has a 3s ICD (which I totally forgot about) it actually IS best to spread out Tracer Missiles.
(12-29-2011 07:01 PM)Tato23 Wrote: Also wanted to let you guys know, the pve set bonus, the 2pc is nice.
15% extra crit chance for High impact bolt and grav round/tracer missile.
That alone with raid buffs pushes me up to 50% chance to crit with those 2. I assume this will factor into our ammo/heat regen big time.
Yep, got my first piece last night from the Columi set. In short, this bonus is AMAZING. With mostly level 126 (and some 136, though it's pvp) artifact gear, I sit at about 33.5% crit unbuffed, add in the set bonus and IA/Smuggler buff, and you break 50% easily. This may just be one of those bonuses that have to get nerfed before the next tier, to force people to upgrade, since it is AMAZING.
(12-29-2011 07:01 PM)Tato23 Wrote: Can't remember the 4pc off the top of my head, I'll post tomorrow with it.
It removes 8 heat from the cost of Rail Shot (making it free). Which makes me think if we can get free damage, maybe it's best to use Rail Shot on cooldown, regardless of Tracer Lock stacks... anyone else have any thoughts? Sometimes I find (essentially when I don't get any barrage procs) that it's easy to have a 5x Tracer Lock when Rail Shot comes off CD, but when I get lot's of Barrage procs it's not uncommon for me to only have 2 or 3.
On a side note, I don't know if any of you have gotten some surge rating, but I put a handful of "Battle" crit/surge enhancements in my gear (from the purple enhancements awarded by Ilum heroic 2+ daily), and was truly impressed with the results. Most shocking to me was how little surge rating was required to raise your crit damage by 1%, I hit 80% bonus damage without much effort. It seems to especially shine in PvP; I've gotten quite a few 4k+ Heatseekers off.
RE: Arsenal Mercenary | Gunnery Commando DPS Compendium - Poksu - 12-30-2011 02:58 AM
You still need your own personal Heat Signatures on the target for Heatseeker Missiles, so getting that 5xstack is important. What I've been doing in reality, is double Tracer, Unload if there's a barrage proc (I usually just double Tracer even if the 1st one procs barrage since the proc comes so late you have already started to cast 2nd Tracer) or Rapid Shots if there's not. Then the 3rd tracer followed by Heatseekers. Now if you do get too much heat, and since were talking about the start of a fight, using Thermal Sensor Override
Thermal Sensor Override
Bounty Hunter
Activation time: Instant
Cooldown: 120 secs
Your next ability generates no heat. Effect lasts <<1[%d seconds/%d second/%d seconds]>>.
Bounty Hunter
Activation time: Instant
Cooldown: 120 secs
Your next ability generates no heat. Effect lasts <<1[%d seconds/%d second/%d seconds]>>.
I suppose it can be calculated, but I'd say wait for the 5 tracer locks for Railshot. It's 6% per buff for 30%! at full 5 stacks. The Unload question is a tricky one... It doesn't matter if you use it off cd since the Barrage proc resets it. If you're high on heat and Unload is off cd, it could be better dps to just Unload without barrage rather than Rapid Shots. Even more so as Rapid Shots can't proc Terminal Velocity
Terminal Velocity
Bounty Hunter (Mercenary)
Activation time: Instant
While High Velocity Gas Cylinder is active, critical hits with missiles and Unload have a [50/100]% chance to vent 8 heat. This effect cannot occur more than once every 3 seconds.
Bounty Hunter (Mercenary)
Activation time: Instant
While High Velocity Gas Cylinder is active, critical hits with missiles and Unload have a [50/100]% chance to vent 8 heat. This effect cannot occur more than once every 3 seconds.
RE: Arsenal Mercenary | Gunnery Commando DPS Compendium - Xyrm - 12-30-2011 04:52 AM
(12-30-2011 02:58 AM)Poksu Wrote: You still need your own personal Heat Signatures on the target for Heatseeker Missiles, so getting that 5xstack is important.
No argument there, my point was heat signatures have nothing to do with unload, but your explanation below clears up my concern about you ALWAYS doing unload after the first two TMs (since you say you only do it if there's a barrage).
(12-30-2011 02:58 AM)Poksu Wrote: What I've been doing in reality, is double Tracer, Unload if there's a barrage proc (I usually just double Tracer even if the 1st one procs barrage since the proc comes so late you have already started to cast 2nd Tracer) or Rapid Shots if there's not. Then the 3rd tracer followed by Heatseekers. Now if you do get too much heat, and since were talking about the start of a fight, using Thermal Sensor Overridefor, let's say the Heatseeker, could become optimal. Thermal Sensors are on 1,5 min cd talented anyways so you can use it multiple times during any boss fight.Thermal Sensor Override
Bounty Hunter
Activation time: Instant
Cooldown: 120 secs
Your next ability generates no heat. Effect lasts <<1[%d seconds/%d second/%d seconds]>>.
Yep, and this is exactly what I've been trying lately and it works great. Using Thermal Sensor Override on or near CD is very important, as it is a direct DPS cooldown (the same applies to vent heat).
(12-30-2011 02:58 AM)Poksu Wrote: I suppose it can be calculated, but I'd say wait for the 5 tracer locks for Railshot. It's 6% per buff for 30%! at full 5 stacks.
It can be, but it's a doozy. You have to factor the DPSPH of EVERY ability, because choosing to delay Rail Shot has implications down the road of your entire rotation. We need a simulation tool to answer this.
(12-30-2011 02:58 AM)Poksu Wrote: If you're high on heat and Unload is off cd, it could be better dps to just Unload without barrage rather than Rapid Shots.
At first I was going to say that you lost me here, but you may be on to something. With no crits, in the ideal heat bracket unload is expected to net 1 heat after 3 seconds. Now if my memory of probability isn't horrible, if we assume a 30% crit rate, we have approximately a 66% chance (1 - (.7 ^ 3)) to get a TV proc in a full Unload. If the expected range then is between -7 and 1 (a difference of 8, the amount TV refunds), then that puts us at an expected loss of approximately -4.28. In the 3 seconds you are channeling, if your unload pushes you up into the next bracket even for all 3 seconds, you would still come out ahead, on average, by 1.28 heat.
Now this doesn't factor in the rotational impact of using an unload (3 seconds) as opposed to say, Rapid Shot AND Tracer missile (which only has 1 chance to proc TV instead of 3). That would require a comparison of DPSPH of all options, and again there is a LOT of other things going on, including whether or not this unload has barrage, etc.
It seems we have a lot of questions we simply can't answer definitively until we have a simulation tool that can handle this.
RE: Arsenal Mercenary | Gunnery Commando DPS Compendium - Trollicane - 12-30-2011 06:45 PM
The Bounty Hunter Mercenary ability Rail Shot seems to be doing quite a bit less damage then it's supposed to. The tooltip claims 849-1019, I consistently see numbers at around 800, this is with 5 stacks of debuffs on the target and 5 stacks of buffs on me, combined they should up the damage around 50%, meaning the hits should be about 1300-1400? This is at lvl42, on strong mobs, mind you. Regular ones don't live that long. AND I just saw a hit of 450ish, that's just bizarre.
RE: Arsenal Mercenary | Gunnery Commando DPS Compendium - swift - 12-30-2011 07:06 PM
A lot of the questions that have come up, could simply be answered if we had a list of aDPR values (Additional Damage Per Resource) for all our abilities with regards to stacking buffs. It's basically the same as DPR, but accounts for the fact that we could use the same cast time for Rapid Shots and deal damage at no resource cost. The difference is important, however, if you want to make comparisons that involve Rapid Shots (ie. use Tracer Missile followed by Rapid Shots or use Unload without Barrage). I'd define aDPR as follows:
aDPR = Additional Damage Dealt / Resource Cost
Additional Damage Dealt = AbilityDamage - MinDamage
where AbilityDamage is the damage dealt by the ability and MinDamage is the Damage we deal at 0 resource cost (ie. Rapid Shots) over the same duration.
Assuming we stay within 0-40% and maximise use of all our cooldowns, the amount of resources we can spend for a given fight length is more or less fixed. Therefore, the only way for us to do more damage is to spend the resources we have more efficiently. Our priority, then is to simply spend as many resources as efficiently as possible while staying within 0 to 40 Heat or in other words maxmise our DPR.
With regards to Cell Charger / Terminal Velocity, I'd be very careful of making any assumptions or doing any calculations for different abilities as the interaction of the 3s ICD, the varying projectile speeds and instant cast vs. cast time spell, could have severe implications. It could well be, that it's best to weave in Rapid Shot / Rail Shot / Heatseeker Missile / Unload inbetween casts of Tracer Missile. But without a combatlog or target dummy, it's simply impossible to say.
Does anyone have figures for weapon damage, bonus damage, crit, etc at lvl 50? I might be able to code some small mini-sim later, then.
@Trollicane: Rail Shot damage is reduced by the targets Armor.